Author Topic: Length of Salat al-Isha  (Read 1188 times)

Wakas

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 02:24:15 AM »
Good (Y), so you agree with me that it should be the whole timeframe.

So do you also think that ghasaqi al-layl is starting with astronomical twilight? That would mean a 2h salat.

Yes, that would be the ideal. I personally do not think Quran is ultra strict on the time length. The key guideline, in my view, is that it's daily/regular (for the mumineen).

And yes it is in the singular. This is also discussed in the links I gave previously, e.g.
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

HP_TECH

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 08:12:20 AM »
Singular?
Please tell me you guys are friggin joking.
Is the community not supposed to follow their leader?


Furthermore, please learn how to carefully read and don't just read. Read in context and be patient.

73:1-9
O you who wraps himself!
Stand (in) the night, except a little,
Half of it, or lessen from it a little,
Or add to it, and recite the Quran (with) measured rhythmic recitation.
Indeed, We will cast upon you a Word heavy.
Indeed, (the) rising (at) the night, it (is) very hard and most potent and more suitable (for) Word.
Indeed, for you in the day (is) occupation prolonged.
And remember (the) name (of) your Lord and devote yourself to Him (with) devotion.

73:20
Indeed, your Lord knows that you stand (a little) less than two-thirds (of) the night, and half of it and a third of it and (so do) a group of those who (are) with you.

Everything from here is addressed in 2nd person masculine plural!!!!!! Open your eyes!!!
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=73&verse=20

And Allah determines the night and the day. He knows that not you count it, so He has turned to you, so recite what is easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be among you sick and others traveling in the land seeking of (the) Bounty (of) Allah, and others fighting in (the) way (of) Allah. So recite what is easy of it, and establish the prayer and give the zakah and loan Allah a loan goodly. And whatever you send forth for yourselves of good, you will find it with Allah. It (will be) better and greater (in) reward. And seek forgiveness (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

It is not my duty to spoon-feed you guys, but at this point this is a bit ridiculous.
Your scholarly efforts need to improve brothers.

Not only is it not true that those verses are entirely singular, but even then the passages would clearly indicate that there are others with him.

Clear your hearts of the obstructions





إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Rilum

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2018, 05:10:54 PM »
Dear Brother,
we both meant 17:78,
Peace.

HP_TECH

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2018, 07:29:24 PM »
Dear Brother,
we both meant 17:78,
Peace.

Ah okay just saying, that still makes no sense.
You can toss all your doubts out the window.
The entire Quran is in majority of the time addressing the Prophet. However, that does not mean that we can neglect most of what the Quran is saying because it is addressing Him and not mankind all directly.

1. You cannot deny that there are countless Verses that are addressed in plural and command the believers to establish the prayer
2. You cannot deny that there are countless Verses that are addressed in plural and command the believers to glorify in the mornings and in the evenings 
3. You cannot deny that there are other passages related to this topic which you have neglected like Surah 73 and Surah 24
4. Surah 24 dispels the ill-founded notion that salat al-isha is only for Muhammad
5. Surah 73 dispels the assumption that the prayer has to be all night long


Don't try to analyze a topic without bringing in all relevant passages, you will learn nothing

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo liyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukum waallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkum thalatha marratin min qabli salati alfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheerati wamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathu AAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahun baAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukum AAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun

O you who believe! Let ask your permission those whom possess your right hands and those who (have) not reached puberty among you (at) three times, before (the) prayer (of) dawn, and when you put aside your garments at noon and after (the) prayer (of) night. (These) three (are) times of privacy for you. Not on you and not on them any blame after that (as) moving about among you, some of you among others. Thus Allah makes clear for you the Verses, and Allah (is) All-Knower, All-Wise.

Better not ask if it's plural! But if you do.... whatevs link below to show
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=24&verse=58#(24:58:1)


If you are not genuinely studious you will be easily deceived and go astray like most of the people and many of the forum members.
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Wakas

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2018, 01:35:32 AM »
peace HPT, all,

If YOU had bothered to read carefully you will have seen this is addressed in the link I gave above, quote:

Quote
NB: an important issue that I have only begun to study is that all the "verses"/signs/ayatin which refer to a time for slw are addressed to the messenger in the Arabic singular (unlike other commands, such as "fasting"/abstinence/sawm), thus may not be applicable to everyone. This for example, may solve the problem of unworkable sun-based schedules in northern countries, e.g. Sweden/Norway during some parts of the year. Also, for orbiting astronauts in space. Therefore, it has been suggested that the timing systems described for slw are meant to be taken as an example, not that they should be applicable to everyone everywhere. Thus, instead of morning & evening, it would be at the start of the working day and at the end (implied in 24:58), whatever that may be for each individual. This aspect of this article will be updated as soon as I have researched it thoroughly.
Please note that 2:185, abstinence is only upon those who are able to witness the month. No such clause exists for salat.

And it's also discussed here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Quote
It should be noted that to my knowledge, the only plural address to believers for a timed salat verse is 24:58, wherein only "salat al fajr" and "salat al isha" are mentioned. This is commonly not mentioned in articles.

And the concept is also analysed here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Quote
PLURAL verb address:
33:42 glorify morning/BKR and evening/ASL
21:20 They glorify night and daytime, they do not tire. *
48:9 glorify morning/BKR and evening/ASL
30:17 glory be to God when you reach the evening/MSW and when you reach the morning/Saad-BH

Technically SINGULAR verb address but context indicates wider application:
19:11 ...revealed/indicated to his people to glorify morning/BKR and evening/ASL
24:36 In houses/shelters that God has allowed to be raised and His name is remembered/mentioned in them. He is glorified therein morning/GhDW and evening/ASL

SINGULAR verb address:
40:55 glorify with praise in evening/3ShW and morning/BKR
41:38 those who are with your Lord glorify Him in the night and daytime and they do not tire. *
50:39-40 glorify with praise before rising of the sun and before setting of the sun and from the night so glorify Him and after ends of the acknowledgement/SJD**
76:25-26 remember/THIKR the name of your Lord morning/BKR and evening/ASL and from the night so give acknowledgement/SJD to Him** and glorify a long night
7:205 remember/THIKR your Lord within yourself, humbly and (in) fear; and without loudness of words, in the morning/GhDW and the evening/ASL
52:48-49 glorify with praise when you stand/arise. And from the night so glorify Him and after the stars ***
3:41 ...glorify Him in the evening/3ShY and morning/BKR
38:18 We subjected the mountains with him to glorify in the evening/3ShY and sunrise/ShRQ.
20:130 glorify with praise of your Lord before rising of the sun and before setting of the sun and from hours of night so glorify and edges/sides of the daytime so that you may be pleased/satisfied.

Quick summary for those who do not wish to study the above links:

When Quran mentions doing X (e.g. salat, thikr, or sabih) AND a sun timing it is always in the singular.

When Quran mentions doing X morning and evening (including 24:58) it is always in the plural.

I did not find one exception to this in entire Quran. Please correct me if I'm wrong. As I often say, I'd rather be corrected in this life than the next.


Sometimes I wonder if people read my articles carefully. Please note, I spend huge amount of time studying when writing my articles. I am very careful about what I write. But do not take my word for it (look at my signature!), ponder over my 10000+ posts in this forum and articles and find anyone showing I made a clear error (if I recall correctly, it's been a handful of times).

Then once you reflect on that, dont be mistaken into thinking I'm a really intelligent guy, I'm just really scared of saying something wrong about Quran hence my approach. I think about this all the time:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg13239#msg13239

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

HP_TECH

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2018, 02:56:34 PM »
Peace Wakas,

I guess we are both not reading each other carefully.

You say:

Quote
NB: an important issue that I have only begun to study is that all the "verses"/signs/ayatin which refer to a time for slw are addressed to the messenger in the Arabic singular (unlike other commands, such as "fasting"/abstinence/sawm), thus may not be applicable to everyone. This for example, may solve the problem of unworkable sun-based schedules in northern countries, e.g. Sweden/Norway during some parts of the year. Also, for orbiting astronauts in space. Therefore, it has been suggested that the timing systems described for slw are meant to be taken as an example, not that they should be applicable to everyone everywhere. Thus, instead of morning & evening, it would be at the start of the working day and at the end (implied in 24:58), whatever that may be for each individual. This aspect of this article will be updated as soon as I have researched it thoroughly.
Please note that 2:185, abstinence is only upon those who are able to witness the month. No such clause exists for salat.

And I have already clearly stated:
The entire Quran is in majority of the time addressing the Prophet. However, that does not mean that we can neglect most of what the Quran is saying because it is addressing Him and not mankind all directly.

1. You cannot deny that there are countless Verses that are addressed in plural and command the believers to establish the prayer
2. You cannot deny that there are countless Verses that are addressed in plural and command the believers to glorify in the mornings and in the evenings 
3. You cannot deny that there are other passages related to this topic which you have neglected like Surah 73 and Surah 24
4. Surah 24 dispels the ill-founded notion that salat al-isha is only for Muhammad
5. Surah 73 dispels the assumption that the prayer has to be all night long

Your conclusion the one which I highlighted in red, is the kind of reasoning that drove me to make the post.
It doesn't at all make sense to try to excuse the umma from their duty for such an unsupported nuance.
In fact there is much evidence (5 bullet points ) for the fact that this duty is emphasized for them to establish and also that they are permitted to shorten as they see fit.

There is no excuse

Also I am not going to read all of your old articles. It is a lot!
Why do you assume your articles are infallible brother?
New ideas are being formed. Can you not contribute similarly?
The complacency you have in your articles is akin to how most members claim sectarians have become complacent in their knowledge from hadith.

Also I dont trust it as you bring up NASA and orbit smh   
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Wakas

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2018, 03:50:26 AM »
peace HPT,

I'm not sure if you have misunderstood me, but I'm not saying believers should not undertake the regular/timed salat. I'm saying the specific timing involving the sun should not be taken as universally applicable to everyone everywhere. More accurately (in my view) it can be taken to mean morning and evening (i.e. twice daily) at whatever times. Thus, in my view, The Quran is providing an exemplar for what the messenger did (i.e. Quran is saying do it twice daily, not necessarily at those specific sun times or for those lengths), but that would be the ideal if one can do that.

Is that what you thought? I may look into the re-wording the article.

And for the sake of stating the obvious, I never said my articles are infallible, or my view is set in stone. This is blatantly obvious from the disclaimer I put in everything I write.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

HP_TECH

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2018, 08:00:00 AM »
Ok love you
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Wakas

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Re: Length of Salat al-Isha
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2018, 04:27:20 PM »
I asked if you misunderstood so I could consider whether to re-word the article in order to clarify it. This was about helping future readers, our brothers/sisters. Your reply was not helpful.

In any case, I have clarified it.


Bee humble:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600385.msg247063#msg247063
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org