Author Topic: I want to make a simple mathematical model of interest system and I need help.  (Read 500 times)

selim

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I've been thinking about a way to teach economically illiterate people about why usury is immoral and why the system is bound to collapse on itself. Despite referencing short videos and short written explanations, I haven't been successful. They keep feeling they haven't understood anything and saying they find it too complex. Just as traditional minded Muslims find it too hard to read the Quran themselves and leave the job to "professionals", they tend to leave economics to scholars. So I consider designing a very simple model with real small numbers. It will show how the system will fail altogether when cheap natural resources (esp. oil) stop feeding the system and no new land left to be acquired to exploit. This model could be a simple spreadsheet, a webpage, or just a written plot to work on a formula. Each transaction will be simple calculation among a very limited number of players, such as a farmer, a bank, a govt., a factory and an office worker. Something like that. After enough iterations, the situation will be locked. This is the real situation on a planetary scale. But grasping this took me years and dozens of books. Not everyone can do this. So I need to build a simplistic model to represent complexity. By this model;
- One can see in a few moments the basic premises of the system are not sustainable.
- One can see one of the most important laws of Quran is not a dogma, but a rational, sustainable protection against a total collapse. This may help people to understand that every rule in The Book has an understandable causality. This in turn could make it apparent that God does not want anything for himself but he only wants people to help themselves. I think this last one is a really huge problem in the modern world. Conceptualizing a univocal God has been very costly to humanity, if you know what I mean.

Jafar

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Interest is not immoral...
Taking advantage of the plight of other people is...



Abdun Nur

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riba means usury, and usury is a concept, that concept is not limited to interest on money, it is applicable to all trades.

Trade is a reciprocal exchange of labours.

Usury is the lending of something and after receiving it back demanding more than was given.

“Interest Is Theft, Rent Robbery, And Profit Only Another Name For Plunder.” Ezra Heywood

Usury is the ultimate centralisation of power, hierarchy is birthed its conjoined twin. For the usurious, usury is perceived as free money, extracted extortionately; for the extorted victim they perceive no alternative.

“Usury is a certain benefit which is received for the use of the thing lent beyond the return in full of the thing lent, and is not lawful.” Definition Black’s Law Dictionary.

To understand usury, you must first understand trade, as usury is ‘not’ trade.

To understand trade you must understand ownership, innately “you may only own that which you create yourself”.

In trade the only thing you then own are your labours, and substantively it’s these labours invested in the exchange that are traded.

For example if I exchange a bag of apples for a bag of potatoes, the apples and the potatoes are free, it is only the labours invested within their cultivation and delivery, that have value in exchange.

Usury is unreciprocated labours, which are received for the use of something lent, beyond the return in full of the thing lent. In others words usury (riba) is:

Trade is an reciprocal exchange of labours, usury is a taking of labours without reciprocation.

once you understand the concept and you understand the nature and function of systems such as ownership, rental, interest debt, taxation, and profit, it becomes clear they are forms of usury.

Taxation is a form of usury because in a feudal model all citizens are slaves, and a slave cannot own, everything is the property of the owners and the slave is lent everything, this is the basis of taxation:

The interactions of individual people in a market are quite simple. People give something in exchange for something else. From these simple interactions emerges the whole global network of trade.
 
This requires no planning or organizing as an organic market place will develop and grow through necessity, unless you impose yourself between the traders and demand part of the trade simply to allow it, like all thieves you must use the threat of violence, kidnap and murder, ideally as a monopoly, to extract your extorted share, and you must control all trades within your own administrative monopoly, otherwise who would willingly pay a thief.

HP_TECH

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Interest is not immoral...
Taking advantage of the plight of other people is...

How do you determine what's moral or immoral based on your own whim?
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Cerberus

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How do you determine what's moral or immoral based on your own whim?

That's a good question, how do you tell what's moral or immoral ? Excluding what is blatantly immoral.

I asked two sunni muslims on the Islam Stack Exchange before whether they would steal if it wasn't "haram", they answered "yes/probably yes". Strange thing is one of them presented herself as a "Mathematician with a PhD". (one of the reason why I wanted to ask her and see)

A lot of people don't know morality from immorality, I prefer to call it right from wrong. So determining the source of knowledge of right/wrong is very important, and everybody should be able to do that, if they choose to.

HP_TECH

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The issue for me is that people think something is universally immoral or moral based on their own perspective and their own experiences. I am not talking about sunnis or sectarians. I am kinda emphasizing atheists actually.
A point in cons to the example you brought, is that your question to those individuals was loaded. It was fallacious to begin with. God does not command immoralities. He is the Source and Pinnacle of All Good Attributes. The True Standard of what it means to be Moral comes from God, everything else is man-made bias.
So in their cultured ways they mean that whatever God forbids them from they would refrain from and whatever He permits for them to do then they would partake in.
That shows more intelligence than a Westernized atheist fool who thinks the standard of morality should bend to his desire. Meaning people should be free to do what they want. That is hypocrisy and ignorance.

By those marks I'd rather be a sectarian who demonstrates fear of God, His Authority and acceptance of His Infinite Judgement and Wisdom than a self-deluded atheist.
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Cerberus

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Of course morality and Immorality has to be something universal. It's not logical that its knowledge should be in the hands of those who follow this or that sect. In fact, life revolves around the one who lives it, not around some book or some sect. Because we have people all around the world and they all should be able to tell morality from immorality, and they should all be able to choose one way or the other. And they do.

Of course people should be able to do whatever they want, how else could they be judged ? God shows the people their own ignorance and hypocrisy by their own actions. Some learn from their mistakes, others don't. It does not make sense to oblige people to do what they do not want to do, even if it is the right thing. That is how each person is responsible of his own actions and no one bears the burden of another.