Author Topic: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar  (Read 1506 times)

progressive1993

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • Karma +0/-1
Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« on: January 20, 2018, 08:48:22 AM »
I saw someone post that 'al misyar' refers to distilled alcohol / liquor. I am not convinced. What do people here think of that?

I also wanted to know the exact meaning of khamr and sakaran. What is the difference? It is quite clear that khamr is liquid and can be pressed and that one can make sakaran from fruit.

Perhaps khamr refers to alcohol and sakaran to wine/fermented alcohol (wine and beer) or vice versa? Or sakaran refers to liquor and khamr to wine/fermented alcohol? Let me know what you think about these three.

Also, in case anyone still thinks alcohol is prohibited, I will post my take below on why this is not true:

1. Not mentioned as 'haram' nor does it say 'do not drink...'
2. Notice that al khamr and al maysir are the only two things mentioned in 5:91 that are also mentioned in 5:90. They are given as things that humans use or do. The rest of the things from 5:90 are not mentioned and are actually forbidden in 5:3. Al khamr and al misyar are not forbidden anywhere including 5:3.
3. 4:43
4. 16:67 (if sakaran is taken as something alcoholic)
5. History of Joseph
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Novice

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1046
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 05:44:02 PM »
I saw someone post that 'al misyar' refers to distilled alcohol / liquor. I am not convinced. What do people here think of that?
Root of ٱلۡمَيۡسِرُ is ي س ر that conveys meaning of "ease" so Maysar could be anything obtained by ease without input of effort i.e proceeds of gambling etc. As per 2:219 benefit of these things is small as compared to their damage.

يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡخَمۡرِ وَٱلۡمَيۡسِرِ‌ۖ قُلۡ فِيهِمَآ إِثۡمٌ۬ ڪَبِيرٌ۬ وَمَنَـٰفِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَإِثۡمُهُمَآ أَڪۡبَرُ مِن نَّفۡعِهِمَا‌ۗ..... 2:219

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great إِثۡمٌ۬ "damage" and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin "إِثۡمٌ۬" is greater than their benefit."

In 7:33
قُلۡ إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ رَبِّىَ ٱلۡفَوَٲحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنۡہَا وَمَا بَطَنَ وَٱلۡإِثۡمَ وَٱلۡبَغۡىَ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَأَن تُشۡرِكُواْ بِٱللَّهِ مَا لَمۡ يُنَزِّلۡ بِهِۦ سُلۡطَـٰنً۬ا وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعۡلَمُونَ

Say, "My Lord has only forbidden Al-fawahisha - what is apparent of them and what is concealed - and sin إِثۡمٌ۬  , and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know."

So AL-Kumar and Al-Maysar as "Ithm" are haram as per 7:33

Also, in case anyone still thinks alcohol is prohibited, I will post my take below on why this is not true:

1. Not mentioned as 'haram' nor does it say 'do not drink...'
2. Notice that al khamr and al maysir are the only two things mentioned in 5:91 that are also mentioned in 5:90. They are given as things that humans use or do. The rest of the things from 5:90 are not mentioned and are actually forbidden in 5:3. Al khamr and al misyar are not forbidden anywhere including 5:3.
يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ إِنَّمَا ٱلۡخَمۡرُ وَٱلۡمَيۡسِرُ وَٱلۡأَنصَابُ وَٱلۡأَزۡلَـٰمُ رِجۡسٌ۬ مِّنۡ عَمَلِ ٱلشَّيۡطَـٰنِ فَٱجۡتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (٩٠


The pronoun "HU" in red is singular and hense not referring to four things mentioned. It may refer to "RIJS form action of shaitan" and we are told to stay away from it.

3. 4:43

Sukran is a barrier between you and your mind which hinders you from clear thinking. Toxicants are also called sukran because they effect your thinking.

4. 16:67 (if sakaran is taken as something alcoholic)

16:67 And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant (Sakaran) and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.

It is telling us that you take sakaran and good provision from fruits. So it is our doing with our choice and not that it is recommended or approved.

5. History of Joseph

Again in the story of Joseph we are informed that people at that time were engaged in taking sukran by their choice. Which to me is not a permission to do it but a piece of information about those times.

Salaam

Noon waalqalami

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1831
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 11:51:44 PM »
2:219 ىسلونك asked they you عن about الخمر l-khamri/the inebriant والمىسر wal-maysiri/and the wager قل say فىهما in them dual اثم ithmun/detriment كبىر great ومنافع and gains للناس to the humankind واثمهما and detriment them dual اكبر greater من from نفعهما benefit them dual وىسلونك and asked they you ماذا what hath ىنفقون spending قل say العفو the excess كذلك like such ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you الاىت the signs لعلكم perhaps you تتفكرون pondering

5:90-91 ىاىها O you الذىن the ones امنوا believes ye of انما simply الخمر l-khamru/the inebriant والمىسر wal-maysiru/and the wager والانصاب and the monuments والازلام and the arrows رجس filthiness من from عمل work الشىطان the devil فاجتنبوه so avoids ye him لعلكم perhaps you تفلحون succeeding انما simply ىرىد intends الشىطان the devil ان that ىوقع cause بىنكم between you العداوه the hostility والبغضا and the hatred فى in الخمر the inebriant والمىسر and the wager وىصدكم and hinder you عن about ذكر remembrance الله the god وعن and from الصلوه the connection فهل so can انتم be you منتهون ceasing?


So AL-Kumar and Al-Maysar as "Ithm" are haram as per 7:33

Peace, use "context" nor is it rational as "harrama ithma" unconnected rather...

7:33 قل say انما simply حرم harrama/prohibit ربى lord mine
1.   الفواحش the immoralities ما what ظهر apparent منها therein وما and what بطن unaware
2.   والاثم wal-ithma/and the detriment والبغى and the cruelty بغىر in other than الحق the right
3.   وان and that تشركوا thou associate ye of بالله with the god ما what لم not ىنزل descended به in it سلطنا authority of
4.   وان and that تقولوا thou speak ye of على about الله the god ما what لا not تعلمون thou knowing


Likewise 47:15 ? وانهار and rivers من from خمر khamrin/inebriant لذه delicious للشاربىن to the drinkers ?

16:67 ومن and from ثمرات fruits النخىل the date palms والاعناب and the grapevines تتخذون thou taking منه from it سكرا sakaran/intoxicant of ورزقا and provision of حسنا good of ان indeed فى in ذلك such لاىه surely sign لقوم for folk ىعقلون reasoning


E.g. vinegar has many health benefits: bactericidal helps with infections; weight loss; lower blood glucose and insulin levels; antioxidants to help cardiovascular disease, cancer, and inflammatory conditions, etc.




The Sardar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1537
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 12:38:50 AM »
Just recently brother Joseph Yaseen Shaer has made a video about Alcohol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIebuTh0Gkw

progressive1993

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • Karma +0/-1
Re: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 01:45:05 AM »
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great إِثۡمٌ۬ "damage" and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin "إِثۡمٌ۬" is greater than their benefit."

In 7:33
قُلۡ إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ رَبِّىَ ٱلۡفَوَٲحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنۡہَا وَمَا بَطَنَ وَٱلۡإِثۡمَ وَٱلۡبَغۡىَ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَأَن تُشۡرِكُواْ بِٱللَّهِ مَا لَمۡ يُنَزِّلۡ بِهِۦ سُلۡطَـٰنً۬ا وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعۡلَمُونَ

Say, "My Lord has only forbidden Al-fawahisha - what is apparent of them and what is concealed - and sin إِثۡمٌ۬  , and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know."

So AL-Kumar and Al-Maysar as "Ithm" are haram as per 7:33
يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ إِنَّمَا ٱلۡخَمۡرُ وَٱلۡمَيۡسِرُ وَٱلۡأَنصَابُ وَٱلۡأَزۡلَـٰمُ رِجۡسٌ۬ مِّنۡ عَمَلِ ٱلشَّيۡطَـٰنِ فَٱجۡتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (٩٠


Again in the story of Joseph we are informed that people at that time were engaged in taking sukran by their choice. Which to me is not a permission to do it but a piece of information about those times.

Is this a serious argument or a "novice" argument? It says "in them is ithm" and they are mentioned as things people use and those people are not admonished! Do we have examples of Joseph preparing pork? Khamr (which I think may mean wine or fermented alcohol) is lawful for consumption.

The pronoun "HU" in red is singular and hense not referring to four things mentioned. It may refer to "RIJS form action of shaitan" and we are told to stay away from it.

Shaytan is the last singular word before hu.

Sukran is a barrier between you and your mind which hinders you from clear thinking. Toxicants are also called sukran because they effect your thinking.

No proof given.

16:67 And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant (Sakaran) and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.

It is telling us that you take sakaran and good provision from fruits. So it is our doing with our choice and not that it is recommended or approved.

Exactly. Freedom of choice. Freedom to choose to drink alcohol.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

progressive1993

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • Karma +0/-1
Re: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 01:45:56 AM »
Just recently brother Joseph Yaseen Shaer has made a video about Alcohol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIebuTh0Gkw

I did not watch the full video, but I looked at the comments.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

The Sardar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1537
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Alcohol and more: Khamr, sakaran and misyar
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 08:01:21 AM »
I did not watch the full video, but I looked at the comments.
Why?