Author Topic: If you can't beat them, Join them  (Read 1133 times)


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Re: If you can't beat them, Join them
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2018, 01:20:41 PM »
2. If a person is a sectarian or not depends on how and why he/she follow the quran. It depends on how he/she interprets it and relates to it. Quran alone can be different things, depending on the person. Of course it depends on how the follower is organized, formally or informally, which is based on the style of interpretation and belief.

Kind regards

I agree with you in a broad sense, however since there is only one Allah
and only one religion/deen, that deen should be define more concisely. According to my
understanding a sect is a deviation from the one deen and the Quran
al kareem is one of the books of instruction of that deen.

[Quran 3:19] The only religion approved by God is Submission/obedience.

[Quran 42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and
what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Jesus and Moses:
You shall uphold this religion do not divide it.

We can enumerate what comprises the deen.
1. belief (which is a separate subject)
2. Good to parents, no stealing etc.,

That is why we have this:

2/62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians,
whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward
from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Also, why limit oneself to the quran when it comes to self improvement???

Excellent point!


The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden


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Re: If you can't beat them, Join them
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2018, 01:46:30 PM »
You mean Indonesia?  :) :D ;D
It seem you have no idea on the history of secularism in Indonesia. First, I urge you to research Aceh Province of Indonesia, there sharia rules. Also look up "Ahok", the former governor of Jarkata province. I won't discuss much about this, since I am not fully certain that you refer to Indonesia. But let me tell you this, I have done my homework and concluded Indonesia is an ailing secular democracy that is gradually giving away to sharia form of governance.

Like I said conflict between conservative and secular are going on everywhere..

Don't judge merely on what you read and saw on the 'news'..
I know much about it.. have you traveled there?
And talk to the common people?
You make a quick conclusion as if because Trump won the election and conclude that USA is on it's way to bigotry and KKK will rise again..

I bet any money in the world that Indonesia will not give way to Halakah 2.0 aka "Sharia" law...
Indonesia history? Ok here is a very small piece of it..

Islam is 'foreign' to them.. imported from middle east (the same case with other organized religion) quite recently merely 6 century ago, previously a mixture of Hinduism, Buddhism and HUNDREDS of local (non organized) religion thrived in the region and continue to thrive under the label of organized religions. Muslim (or Christians) believing in the law of karma, performing buddhist style of meditation and performing rituals to the deceased ancestors or 'keris' (traditional sword) is common to be found...

Since it's independence in 1945 Indonesia is a secular republic... thus the motto "Unity in Diversity"..
Anyone can change religion anytime they wishes.. or be a member of multiple religion.. or have none...

Muslims over there are "Cultural Muslim" in majority...

Jakarta's governor election is a political case..  a good case study of how identity politics is still effective strategy in today's world, similar to what happened in the US with Trump election. And it's not "Sentiment against Non Muslim" that prevails in the campaign it is more of "Racial sentiment towards (Chinese) Immigrant".

Aceh will be a good case study whether Halakah 2.0 will resulted in welfare for all citizens. So far the result is negative compared to other area within the nation which maintained secular law. Yet again it proves the 'tolerance' level of the nation, you want Halakah 2.0? Ok fine.. Halakah 2.0 in your area only... in exchange of putting down the rebellion.

You can't find that in any other nation.. this is the same as the US allowing one of it state to be governed by biblical law... or Saudi Arabia allowing it's eastern province to be governed by Shiite's law.

This got to be Turkey. And we all agree that Islamism continue to grow in Turkey. Ataturk's plan has not really been a success. Time will tell.

Again, have you traveled there, talk to the common people?
The majority of Turks are cultural muslims..
Just like Indonesia, Islam is 'foreign' to them.. the Turks have their own native religion.. Tengriism...
I don't need to lecture you about history on how the Turks converted to Islam right?
Fanatical Sunniism will not prevail in Turkey...

True but the problem is that in the traditionalist Muslim community, the religious narratives do not really favor the liberal or secularists. You forget that that a lot of these liberal who often speak out are rejected by their own community. As a sunni, I did lean towards the secular or liberal wing before discovering Qur'an alone. What I realized from dealing with the hardliners is that they always have the edge with theological evidence. They always come up with this or that hadith to silence you.

Religion is on it's downward trend... any dogmatic ideology is on it's downward trend...
It's apparent in the entire world.. or if you want to put a smaller context it is clearly apparent in Turkey and Indonesia.
The rise of ISIS and other religious crazy group will only speed up the process..

The average traditional Muslim does not listen to reason, he prefers passages from sacred texts. This is why the liberals and secularists continue to fail. Even where they succeed, it is short lived.

I don't think so... like I said religion is on it's downward trend..
Yet I can say this, reason will prevail once the factor of FEAR can be eliminated...

Thus creating a new yet dogmatic religion labeled "Quran Alone" is not beneficial...
But of course... feel free to try...

parvez mushtaq

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Re: If you can't beat them, Join them
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2018, 10:12:39 AM »
It would be nice to have a community but not at whatever price.

Where one has to suscribe to an appearance for fear or being judged or subjected to humilliation, it would be trading one's integrity for the sake of approval. On the other hand where people are not generous with other people and judge, there is not community like that I would like to join.

In fact I am more worried about the attitudes of the individuals than about their "ideas". A person who has ideas different from mine but who is not bothered by my ideas and does not subject me to brainwashing or bashing because of them, just takes me as I am and appear, is for me far more acceptable than a Qur'an aloner or any other denomination that might match my own conceptions but who would be judgmental or dogmatical towards me or others. That is why I say that I have been able to be quite comfortable with open traditional muslims, but who were themselves accepting of other people without questionning the attitudes or ideas of those people. I am quite at peace with inclusive mosques, which are really inclusive and open, also with certain sufi circles where relationships and behaviour are open and relaxed, where ease of in dealing with others is more valued than ritualism...

Where people wield the haram or halal bludgeon to make everybody fall into place... Well, no danger I will be seen in such a place.

In other words ,there is no need of GOD alone movement .Is that what you mean


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Re: If you can't beat them, Join them
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2018, 11:21:42 AM »
In other words ,there is no need of GOD alone movement .Is that what you mean

No, I would not say that. If one believe in God alone, one should stick for it, but not necessarily by going separate ways except what feels more feasible.

I feel that we are already subjected to a lot of divisions without looking for a new one, but on the other hand, there is no reason why not collaborate and work together in everything where we feel useful and rewarded doing so.

May be it looks opportunistic or unrealistic but I think it depends a lot on the quality of the people. I cannot say I want to join a God alone, or a God with company regardless or with whom will I be there. Depends a lot on the person.

There are people who are not practicing believers ith whom I can be who I am, with other not. And the same with any kind of belivers.

On the other hand I think even without doing it on purpose one ends up with those that are akin, in my case the most important that accept you and what you entail without requirements to appear something else or becoming something else.

Also in a forum, we may give an image which may nto be also our true selves. We do not see the face, as they say the body language, the xpression. I guess most of us would be very surprised if we saw face to face the others here.

May be that is what in in store for the future, a disintegration of religions in the shape they have been up to now, more a matter of personal development or evolution than a matter of doing everybody the same. When I say religions I mean int he snese of confession or churches. May be a world with less religion in that sense and more faith, less collective feeling and more individual involvement. What has been said many times that today there is too much individualism and so on... I think it is a need, a stage in the history of humankind. Individuality is not something negative, it may be, but it may also be a need to be it before going on to something else.

Well, excuse the digression