A Post Capitalism World: Demonetization Of Everything

[Jafar]

Lily Sloane: How much money does the star ship Enterprise cost?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century.

Lily Sloane: No money? You mean, you don't get paid?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force of our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

A kind of 'prophetic' dialog on StarTrek: First Contact, between Lily Sloane a 21st century human and Jean Luc a man coming from 'the future'. And lately there has been talk and discussion on what the world will look like in "Post Capitalism" era.. (not so distant future)

We've seen some of the 'pre requisite' happening today and in nearby future such as:

• Robotic Automation / Artificial Intelligence: Lower down the cost of labor, all work are done by robots..
• Quantum Technology: Lower down the cost of communication and in not so distant future; transportation.
• Collaborative Production: Wikipedia, Free Software Movement (Linux etc) people work together to produce something..
• Sharing Economy: New forms of 'ownership'. AirBnB, Uber is the "primitive" precursor to the phenomenon.
• Democratization Of Everything: YouTube anyone can own TV channel, Blockchain: anyone can issue currency, Social Media: anyone can publish information, ECommerce anyone can be a trader/merchant..

Nothing last forever, including ideology (and tradition / religion).
Thus I would like to ask a member of this forum for any ideas / comments on what the "post capitalism" future will look like.. and whether the Star Trek dialog above really make sense (ie: Demonetization of everything)

Feel free to prophesies about the future.. no worry you are free to claim your 'prophet-hood' on this thread without any fear of being 'attacked'... it's about time to "Democratize" prophesies / prophet-hood as well...

Some easy to digest materials:
Are We Nearing The End Of Capitalism?
https://youtu.be/IE3t77AMITU

Demonetizing Everything: A Post Capitalism World | Peter Diamandis
https://youtu.be/3cXPWyP0BBs

[imrankhawaja]

peace brother jaffar

within just last 100 years, the advancement of planet earth is excellent

if u just watch a b&w movie like 70 years old u will feel a difference

but i feel the discoveries are not going to stop as we know humanbeing is dicovering more and more by the abilities he/she had

the ideas in mind are dreamz any dream can b true as per logic

let say i predict the tecnology in one age allow things to transfer from one location to another (like we are transferring words,pics,live videos) at current state of time. like once it was an idea of a human being to fly in space

and moreover if its logically true that whatever idea we can generate we can also achieve it by discovering the law behind that idea(how TO) is a first step before experimets of (how TO)

so in this way travelling with the speed of light is possible

why possible because we already discoverd that speed some(being) already created that speed

but again if everything is happening according to the will of God then he can make it possible anything what he wills to get happen

God bless you

[imrankhawaja]

how GOOD a world would be if
nobody got to worried about finding job,wife/partner,house,car etc

but as per the plan of God world must b act like a miserable place where we encounter the rape of our emotions with every single day we passed

feelings get destroyed in this world very easily and we wish to seek happiness throughout our life but we returned with more shocks

why everyhuman being feel unsecured from his early life to the oldage ?

as per scientists there is plantey of Gold in the earth so that can cover the full earth with it but the place where a human being cant reach it yet

same in this life our real richies are not in our approach so we will always get thirsty

is it due to a reason that human being know very little about the reality of his self and the stages what he suppose to travel from creation to deatruction
its always hidden from human how this all will gona finish and what the climax of a human being whatever we know about us is the knowledge og fellow human being who used to find something and he/she shared his findings

its sounds scary when we realise what we are going through and where it will end

[Abdun Nur]

Peace,

it is impossible to have a system where - "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force of our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." if you still perpetuate any hierarchical structures. So the screen writers of star trek have a very flawed logic, as they project a very strict and galaxy pervasive hierarchical nature, which is very very unlikely, this world been the exception not the standard, hierarchical structures are anti community, therefore always riba based and repressive, the alternative structures of community, free of hierarchy and riba would be founded on reciprocation and real freedom, of course hierarchy free models are nor promoted as you cannot get rich quick, at the expense of those you fool, or generate a cult following without hierarchy, so few who write of structures of interactions would take any time or interest in such knowledge.

The acquisition of wealth as the driving force implies the gaining possession of wealth that you have not earned with your own labours, simply wealth gained from the labours of others, the millionaire has drained to themselves the labours of others to amass that wealth and that is the driving force for many, they wish to acquire the labours of others as their own without reciprocation.

[Jafar]

so in this way travelling with the speed of light is possible

Even with the speed of light, is not enough to explore the vast space within human lifetime...

Having said that.. a 'magnetic portal / wormhole' which "cut through space" might have been found...
NASA: Hidden Magnetic Portals Around Earth
https://youtu.be/jaB4cSPWBN0

How Scientists Created A Wormhole In A Lab
https://youtu.be/_kxKTX_GH4k

it is impossible to have a system where - "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force of our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." if you still perpetuate any hierarchical structures.
the alternative structures of community, free of hierarchy and riba would be founded on reciprocation and real freedom, of course hierarchy free models are nor promoted as you cannot get rich quick, at the expense of those you fool, or generate a cult following without hierarchy, so few who write of structures of interactions would take any time or interest in such knowledge.

I tend to agree with you.. as long as "hierarchial social structure" exist, it might be difficult ..

This are the things which hasn't changed for many centuries...


But.. even by observing the latest trends we can see that the social pyramid is getting shorter and shorter.... the 'peasants' are getting more and more empowered.. and the "pharaoh" are getting more and more weaker...

The acquisition of wealth as the driving force implies the gaining possession of wealth that you have not earned with your own labours, simply wealth gained from the labours of others, the millionaire has drained to themselves the labours of others to amass that wealth and that is the driving force for many, they wish to acquire the labours of others as their own without reciprocation.

That is by assuming that 'labor' need to be produced by human..
what IF the 'labor' is produced by machines? then every human can be a 'pharaoh' / 'millionaire'..

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and peace, all 

Nanotechnology in particular has a strong possibility of making money obsolete. If there aren't sufficient jobs, how can money function? Not everyone can be an artist. No construction, manufacturing, mining, recycling, waste collection/processing, energy production, farming, or medical jobs will be available. Gold and other "precious" metals won't be particularly scarce or precious either. Any space where living structure can be built will be important, but it is doubtful whether private property will be a concern when trillions of people need living space. Power will most likely be generated through geothermal energy--deep in the earth where it is too hot to live anyway. Another possibility is harnessing Brownian motion (a possibility for powering nanomachines) for power.

Regarding space travel, if space time is folded, the speed of light is not a limitation. Further, if the spaceship is massive enough, the speed isn't terribly important. Imagine a spacecraft made out of a giant asteroid, a moon, a planet, or even a star. It is just too large to explore in a person's lifetime, so the speed to a destination just isn't that important. With enhanced lifespans from nanodoctors in the bloodstream and other technology, who can say just how long a person's lifespan is limited to. There are even some studies that suggest that a certain concentration of deuterium oxide (D₂O) can even increase lifespan, at least in some animals. There are some animals that don't have a known longevity--they just aren't known to die. Think of tardigrades.

I'm concerned that technology may stagnate if people can't find a good enough reason to strive. For many, money provide that reason. Still, it is better to take what good we can find with technology--because the other alternative is to only have the bad. We'd still have atomic weapons even if we didn't have nuclear medicine. Overpopulation and crowding will provide some stimulus for innovation, ISA.


ALLAH knows best.



Abdul-Hadi

[Jafar]

It may anger/upset people, but actually Star Fleet is a little like communism; there appears to be little to no private property and there are no monetary funds anymore, humanity progresses as one unit albeit there's a command structure, an hierarchy, but that's something I've thought is necessary due to the human nature. Yet it's skill and ability which is determining what one does in the Star Trek universe and not wealth and possessions, since there are none.

For thousands of years, before the invention of agriculture, human lived in Socialist like society. No private property everything collectively owned by the group (clan). They do however fight each others (tribal wars) over possession of area / land needed for hunting and gathering. This is still prevalent to some society today.. (ie: Native American tribes, Andaman island tribes, polynesian tribes etc..)
Thus it is 'nothing new' for human..

Even after the invention of agriculture, some group, at some point in time managed to form such socialist society.
An example is "Early Israelites" where land / area were collective owned by tribes, there were no King and only Judges to settle conflict between individual and/or tribes... (ref: Bible)

Greetings and peace, all 

Nanotechnology in particular has a strong possibility of making money obsolete. If there aren't sufficient jobs, how can money function? Not everyone can be an artist. No construction, manufacturing, mining, recycling, waste collection/processing, energy production, farming, or medical jobs will be available. Gold and other "precious" metals won't be particularly scarce or precious either. Any space where living structure can be built will be important, but it is doubtful whether private property will be a concern when trillions of people need living space. Power will most likely be generated through geothermal energy--deep in the earth where it is too hot to live anyway. Another possibility is harnessing Brownian motion (a possibility for powering nanomachines) for power.

It will happened through combination of technological advancement...

The trend is apparent even today:
A small example: Things which requires so many space and >$10,000 is available now for everyone with less space and less than $100. What we have today in a handheld 'smart phone' replaced:
- TV set
- Video Recorder
- Walkman
- Personal Computer
- Phone Terminal
- Pager
- Photo Camera
- Video Camera
- GPS navigational device
- Paper notebook
- Your personal holy books (Bible, Quran, Torah what have you..)
- Your latest novel to read..
etc..


And if all / majority of 'labor' are performed by machines, why would there be any need for "jobs"?
Every human will be "business owners" instead of workers..

Human did this in the past with "slaves".. another human being viewed as not a human being and can be owned and traded as if they are a 'property'. Which indeed caused problems from humanitarian perspective...
Machines / robots do not posed any problems from humanitarian perspective..

Real estate / space might be a concern due to it's limitation... yet human doesn't need much space anyway, except those who still maintained hunter and gatherer lifestyle. It's apparent today where most human are quite comfortable living in <100 sqm apartment and many cities has reached > 20 millions of population.

I'm concerned that technology may stagnate if people can't find a good enough reason to strive. For many, money provide that reason.

Interesting thought... but again for thousand of years money didn't even play any part in human life..
And with the advent of "digital currencies" people of today need to rethink or at least reform their perspective about 'money'.

With the absence of 'wealth / personal property seeking' as reason to strive my guess is human will (once again) found reason with their embedded motives of exploration and curiosity... Which has served well for many centuries in the past.. Exploration and curiosity was the main driver which makes human migrate and colonize (nearly) the entire planet earth.
What lies beyond the ocean? Oh there's another island there! Let's move there!

[good logic]

Jafar,the system of money is deep rooted.
For example:
Millions of pensioners(I am one of them now) draw our pension monthly . Millions of others are following behind all counting on this income to carry on the lifestyle dictated by society. If the "money system" is dismantled ,then a new way/system needs to accommodate these millions of people. How?

You also have the problem of "those who control the money systems" ,they will oppose any rebellion and a war will be inevitable. A long and nasty confrontation awaits such a revolution.

I cannot see the change happening in the next 100 years at least ,if ever.

Having said that, the individual holds the power, if only they realise and act simultaneously.
Although I am slowly "getting out of Babylon" ,I feel like a hypocrite sometimes because I draw my monthly salary and contribute to this system by spending it to help keep this system( paying bills, shopping...etc).

A vicious circle.
My deep instinct tells me "Get out of her" . If only I can!  Help!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Jafar]

Jafar,the system of money is deep rooted.
For example:
Millions of pensioners(I am one of them now) draw our pension monthly . Millions of others are following behind all counting on this income to carry on the lifestyle dictated by society. If the "money system" is dismantled ,then a new way/system needs to accommodate these millions of people. How?

It is deeply rooted, and I never viewed money as evil or bad in the first place..

I think the invention of money is a 'genius'!
It stop people from stockpiling on things which are scarce and has real value..

In exchange they are stockpiling money which are available in abundance (basically unlimited) and has no real value..

Having said that, human (and also other mammals) have millenias of tradition of taking care of their dependent, the elderly, the handicapped, children etc..
Even before the invention of money, thus such tradition will not go away soon..
Much thanks to the embedded nature of 'empathy' within human specifically and all mammals generally..

You also have the problem of "those who control the money systems" ,they will oppose any rebellion and a war will be inevitable. A long and nasty confrontation awaits such a revolution.

Definitely...
And we are starting to witness the above as we speak...

With the advent of blockchain technology, mobile communication and digital currencies, the central banks backed by government or private institution who control the government (ie: Federal Reserve in the US) are starting to wage their own 'confrontation' against the new form of currency which are controlled by 'the people'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory

The 'worst case' scenario of this invention will be the reduction of role of 'intermediaries' in traditional currency distribution systems. As traditional institution will be forced to adapt to the new reality or else they will be obsolete, gone and ceased to exist.

I cannot see the change happening in the next 100 years at least ,if ever.

It has started now, as we speak..

There will be 'shakedown' in economies system.. it just a matter of when...
It will be triggered by the fall of US Dollar, the (traditional) currency which act as the main pillar to the current system..

The discussion is now on what will happened after the 'shakedown'?
How the "Post Capitalism" world will look like?

[SarahY]

There will be 'shakedown' in economies system.. it just a matter of when...
It will be triggered by the fall of US Dollar, the (traditional) currency which act as the main pillar to the current system..

The discussion is now on what will happened after the 'shakedown'?
How the "Post Capitalism" world will look like?

I think people will try to revive capitalism in another form. Whether it'll be backing money to gold, cryptocurrencies or whatever.

Besides wouldn't some people be in a position of power and influence?? so will have an advantage.

Will people come together to make a difference? dunno doubt it. People are too uninformed (myself included) besides apparently our views can change if we feel we have no power to change things. i.e. might be against current banking but because I can't change it, just accept it as it is.

Anyway I would imagine more chaos because of greed and views of entitlement