Author Topic: Verse numbering early manuscripts  (Read 1088 times)

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 10:40:17 PM »
Peace, do you have a copy of the Prophet's written Book with its 100% accuracy? By giving us an early manuscript pages by God knows what scribe, you're contributing to the traditional Muslim's beliefs and I quote "..the divine message was not compiled into the book form in which it appears today. Instead, the revelations were preserved in “the memories of men”." Linking the memories of men with the Qur'an to false hadith compilers and the memories of their men. Pish posh.. True Believers seek 100% certainty and not the dilly-dallying statistical probabilities.

peace, not sure what above rant is about manuscripts 150+ years before hadith!

proof "don't need memories of men" since we have the text/message preserved.

the only difference verse counts example initials chapter 42:1-3 as single verse.

42:1 حم ha meem 42:2 عسق ayn seen qaf 42:3 كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=163



http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=157




Mist

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 10:54:56 PM »
Oh you're not sure about what I said. It doesn't matter if it's "150+ years before hadith". What matters is that it links the memory of the scribe with the memories of the hadith compilers. Do you see the LINK? Same method of compiling. You've presented us with a manuscript, who's the author of this manuscript? Where's your proof that this manuscript which has the probability of 99% and under is "preserved". What part of 100% accuracy do you not understand? What do you see in 85:21-22? That it's a preserved Qur'an with a probability of 99% and under? Pish posh!

imrankhawaja

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 07:28:25 AM »
i wonder why people dnt read Quran with care

the challange of author is there for everybody in many occassions
produce a chapter/book like this
(1400+ years people are not able to fullfill this challange) some of them tried but failed miserably

and there is a slight difference between author and publisher its a part need to understand
in easy words ( let say gabi bring a copy of cd issued by God) anf the master copy of that cd is in custody of secure hands thats how you need to understand how its preserved in master tablet becoz things in the kingdom of God cant misplace or lost or stolen or damaged by viruses hope it may help

God bless you all

@noon i must appreciate ur efforts and soon God will show more signs probably in next times somebody even find more older manuscript from birmingham one nothing is hidden from God but God is wise he knows when to upbring anything in its appropriate time let say what is the usr of that manuscript 150 years ago when there was not a technology to check the radio carbon dating so thats y the discovery of birmingham manuscript is for us hope so next generations got more maniscripts and more new tecnologies

God bless you
God bless humanity
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 09:33:02 AM »
Oh you're not sure about what I said. It doesn't matter if it's "150+ years before hadith". What matters is that it links the memory of the scribe with the memories of the hadith compilers. Do you see the LINK? Same method of compiling. You've presented us with a manuscript, who's the author of this manuscript? Where's your proof that this manuscript which has the probability of 99% and under is "preserved". What part of 100% accuracy do you not understand? What do you see in 85:21-22? That it's a preserved Qur'an with a probability of 99% and under? Pish posh!

it's not same method which is illogical and absurd!
hadith is unwritten hearsay 200 years afterwards!
the manuscripts are written evidence at the time!

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/85/vers/21?handschrift=460

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/85/vers/21?handschrift=163

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/85/vers/21?handschrift=480

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/85/vers/21?handschrift=481

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/85/vers/21?handschrift=56

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/85/vers/21?handschrift=170

80:11 كلا nay انها indeed it تذكره reminder
80:12 فمن so who شا wills ذكره heeds it
80:13 فى in صحف scrolls مكرمه honorable
80:14 مرفوعه exalted مطهره pure
80:15 باىدى by hands سفره scribes
80:16 كرام noble برره dutiful

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/80/vers/15/handschrift/460

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/80/vers/15?handschrift=163

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/80/vers/15?handschrift=480

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/80/vers/15?handschrift=481

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/80/vers/15?handschrift=56

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/80/vers/15?handschrift=170

Mist

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 10:32:57 PM »
it's not same method which is illogical and absurd!
I didn't say otherwise, you just misunderstood the link.

the manuscripts are written evidence at the time!
Incomplete manuscripts. Incomplete! Don't forget to add that word in there, otherwise it might cause people to start doubting. The Book form of Qur'an that we all have today supersedes your probability driven incomplete manuscripts.

80:14 مرفوعه exalted مطهره pure
Pure and here you are giving us incomplete manuscripts that have stained marks, and ripped parts. This is an insult to God's Powers!

Reflect on this verse:
2:259   Or the one who passed through a town which had become ruins. He said: "How can God possibly revive this after it had died?" So God put him to death for one hundred calendar years, then He resurrected him. He said: "How long have you stayed here?" He said: "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said: "No, you have stayed here for one hundred calendar years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We let them arise, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said: "I now know that God is capable of all things!"

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2017, 06:52:32 AM »
The Book form of Qur'an that we all have today supersedes your probability driven incomplete manuscripts.
Pure and here you are giving us incomplete manuscripts that have stained marks, and ripped parts. This is an insult to God's Powers!

Perhaps your writing style on parchment using reed pen would look much better 1400 years later.

How do we verify that we all have today is accurate if not for the old manuscripts take your word?





clashncruz

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Re: Verse numbering early manuscripts
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2018, 03:26:53 AM »
Salamu alaykum all,

As a trained graduate researcher in Political Science and English, I can tell you that all ancient manuscripts almost always have variants in them as they are passed down, this includes legal documents, business ledgers, religious texts, stories, poetry, fables, etc. The study of this phenomena, that existed mostly in the ancient world, is known as textual criticism. Of course today we have been blessed with Ctrl + C, but the ancients did not have this technology. Tired scribes, bad ink and paper, low light and more all contributed to these variants.

This is precisely why the Qur'an is not a written text by nature, it is a recitation (i.e. Al-Qur'an = The Recitation). This is what Mist is referring to, I believe, correct me if I am wrong Mist. Thus, the Qur'an has been preserved in the minds (and hearts) of humanity and this is a more sure verification than texts written many centuries ago. The very fact that the Qur'an is agreed upon everywhere by all Muslims across the world, regardless of sectarianism, is a proof of this. I can go and recite a verse from any chapter I know to any knowledgable Muslim in any part of the world and they will be able to recite the next verse. This is so common it is astounding.

This gift was only given with the Qur'an among the ancient texts as far as I have studied and it is a true blessing. One of the great proofs of the Qur'an and Islam.

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ                  Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. 15:9

P.S. If you are still not convinced go see an earlier post I did about the mathematical perfection of the Qur'an, the numbers are undeniable. https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608259.msg383604#msg383604