Author Topic: Solved: Zina = homewrecking, female adultery  (Read 3569 times)

progressive1993

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Solved: Zina = homewrecking, female adultery
« on: November 23, 2017, 07:50:02 PM »
Zina keeps getting tossed around as adultery or fornication + adultery. What we will see is that zina is akin to what we would today call homewrecking. Essentially it is female adultery of a wife with any man that is not her husband (and perhaps also to whom she is an MMA). Both are guilty when convicted. There is never just one criminal in a case of zina. To understand this concept, you have to realize the role and importance of men as qawwamoona. We will thus also establish who muhsanati are.

I thought this deserved it's own thread. It was in response to the post below, agreeing with it's premise.

in my opinion Zina only happens between a Married woman and a man (doesn't matter married or not). one part should be a married woman unless its not zina, for example a relations between a married man and a single woman is not Zina.
and where I get such condition?  :hmm from reading these verses:

And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked. * And those (men) who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful. * And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars. * And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars. * And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth. (24:4-9)

there is no mention of accusing men even from their spouses, and accusing an unmarried women (accuse only mentioned for Mohassenat not for Nessah). what do you think?

Exactly. There is no mention of accusing men, only:
a) people accusing a woman to whom they arent married (hence the label "muhsanati")
b) a man accusing his wife

There is no male equivalent of the word "muhsanat" and nothing of the sort is used in the chapter/law.

Muhsanat = a woman who is not your wife nor your MMA nor a slave of another. You are not her qawwam. Those who do not understand the importance of the role and the meaning of "qawwam" will never truly understand male-female relationships and categories of males and females used. A married woman can be considered "muhsanat" to all except her husband.

Furthermore, if a cheating wife successfully gets convicted of zina, she forfeits her esteem as "muhsanat." Her marriage is annulled and she may only marry an idolater or a "zani." I will adress the latter towards the end.

Notice how all women - when accused by other than their respective husband - are treated as muhsanati except if proven guilty. Unless 4 eye witnesses testify and it is established that the wife is guilty, she is not called zaniya, but muhsanat. This law has intense protection of a woman's honor: If accusers cant provide 4 eye-witnesses, they are lashed almost as much as an adulteress! It even protects wives who do cheat. Thus, even if a wife cheated and there were only 2 eye-witnesses, they wouldnt dare bring forth an accusation. If they were to do that, their accusation would be tossed out of an arbitration, they would be considered as "liars" in front of the god's law and flogged. The wives in that case, since they didnt get convicted - are not considered "zaniya."

Also notice how it is different when a husband accuses his wife - no mention of muhsanat, since he is her qawwam. There is also no punishment for a potential false accusation, no 4 witnesses and the wife can avert the punishment. Notice how there is no mention of a woman accusing her husband and the husband averting the punishment through a fifth oath.

It seems an MMA cannot be accused of zina. See how 4:25 mentions half the punishment when MMA commits fahisha, but makes no mention of zina. MMA is also not mentioned in the zina verses of chapter 24.

So who is a "zanee?" Any man - whether married or not - who sleeps with another man's wife - granted it has been proven with 4 witnesses. Thus, he is the convicted accomplice of the convicted, cheating, formally-married wife. Thus he can only marry the previously cheating woman whom he slept with, a different adulteress or an idolatress. Same goes for the zaniya but with the male equivalents. It is interesting that the god said this - and along with "that has been forbidden/made inviolable for the mumineen." My concluion from this is that zanee/zaniya cannot be regarded as mumineen, furthermore considering that mumineen arent allowed to marry mushrikati to begin with.

This leads to another interesting interpretation - although i'm not sure it's valid - by Muhammad Asad:

The term mushrik (fem. mushrikah), which normally signifies a person who associates in his or her mind all manner of imaginary deities or forces with God, or who believes that any created being has a share in His qualities or powers, is here evidently used in the widest metaphorical sense of this term, denoting one who accords to his or her desires a supremacy which is due to God alone, and thus blasphemes against the principles of ethics and morality enjoined by Him. The particle aw (lit., "or") which connects the word mushrikah with the preceding word zaniyah (''adulteress") has in this context - as well as in the next clause, where both these terms appear in their masculine form - an amplifying, explanatory value equivalent to the expression "in other words" or "that is"...

To summarize the terms:

Zina = female adultery and male homewrecking
Zaniya = wife who is successfully convicted of adultery - i.e. convicted adulteress
Zanee = accomplice of convicted adulteress - i.e. convicted male homewrecker


To simplify, since the husband is qawwam and head of the household, and zina could be seen as an offense, in part, against the husband, we could also say:

Zina = homewrecking
Zaniya = female homewrecker
Zanee = male homewrecker


Inherently, zina has nothing to do with fornication, unless a single, non-qawwam man sleeps with a married woman (and perhaps also with another man's MMA). Zina also inherently has nothing to do with prostitution, unless a wife prostitutes herself or pays for sex. Zina also inherently has nothing to do with a married man who sleeps with another woman unless that woman is married (or perhaps is an MMA).

Aside from the MMA issue which I am not sure about, this analysis makes a lot of sense and doesnt resort to filling in supposed gaps and changing situations such as talking about accusing husbands of sleeping with anyone else, flip-flopping between fornication and adultery, as well as flip-flopping on and not understanding the terms "zanee" and "zaniya" and that they always refer to the same people.

This whole law is to:

a) Punish a homewrecking woman and man and protect the honor of the family, including children that the former husband and homewrecking wife have.

b) Prevent out-of-wedlock children that may result from a wife's adultery, especially if there is no contraception around. That child, unless she re-marries, will be a "yatam"/fatherless orphan. In an age without contraception, this means causing a child to be fatherless and having his/her mother marry an idolatress or homewrecker and being raised by such. A dignified believer would not want a leeching cheater anyway.

c) Respect the honor of the husband/qawwam who paid a dowry and provides and pays for protection and maintenance of his respective wife - and harshly punishes a wife's betrayal and the man who sleeps with her although he isn't a qawwam to her.

d) Protect a faithful wife and her husband and children from malicious slanderers who would wreck a home and ruin her and her family's lives based on lies. See 24:23 and how it only mentions muhsanati. No man wants anybody to insult and scare him by baselessly accusing his wife of cheating.

e) Protect a faithful wife from baseless accusations from a husband they may want to ruin her life and get rid of her without a waiting period.

Breaking up a family, ruining/negatively impacting children's lives, dishonoring one's qawwam for pure lust and spreading lies to ruin a family... Zina and baseless accusations of zina are heinous and disgusting crimes.

Now we know why not only the punishment for zina (always denotes conviction) is so harsh, but also why the punishment of false accusations and not supplying enough eye-witnesses is almost as harsh, and, moreover, why it is easier to get convicted of slander than zina.

And we understand the following verse a lot better now:

24:23 Those who accuse the innocent/inattentive, believing muhsanati, they will be cursed in this world/the present and the hereafter/the end, and they will have a painful retribution!

24:24 On the day when their tongues, and their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them for what they used to do!

24:25 On that day, the god will reimburse them their due/obligation in full, and they will know that the god is the obvious truth!

24:26 (The wicked women are for the wicked men, and the wicked men are for the wicked women.) The good women are for the good men, and the good men are for the good women. These people are innocent from what statements have been made, and for them is forgiveness and a generous provision.

I now also better understand the term "muhsanatii" after having written this and would translate it as "protected women."

Slander in general is no joke! Especially when one is accusing someone of a heinous crime. Some forum members and gossipers all over this world should take note.

Knowing this now, it is clear that the flogging is well-deserved. No wonder it perplexed many who didnt see it as fair for fornicators, and were apologetic in claiming that the "jelda" punishment was only "light flogging" and more for public shaming. I agree that public shaming is obviously involved. We can also now understand the loss of "mumin" status for homewreckers.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Solved: Zina = homewrecking, female adultery
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 11:48:18 PM »
There is no male equivalent of the word "muhsanat" 

false

4:24 محصنىن muhsinina/who fortify (m/p no sex outside marriage) غىر other than مسفحىن musafihina/who lust (m/p)

[siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery]


Muhsanat = a woman who is not your wife nor your MMA nor a slave of another. You are not her qawwam.

no, definitions are clear...

4:25 محصنت muhsanatin/who fortify (f/p no sex outside marriage) غىر other than مسفحت musafihatin/who lust (f/p)
 ولا and not متخذات those who take (f/p) اخدان secret lovers

5:5 محصنىن muhsinina/who fortify (m/p no sex outside marriage) غىر other than مسفحىن musafihina/who lust (m/p)
 ولا and not متخذى those who take (m/p) اخدان secret lovers





progressive1993

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Re: Solved: Zina = homewrecking, female adultery
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 12:25:19 AM »
The above poster gives no greeting of peace and, in typical fashion tackles a small portion of a post with something without having a grasp or argument.

Also, since the topic of this thread includes slander, moderators are welcomed to enforce forum rules against him for his recent post:

21:32 وجعلنا and made we of السما the heaven/sky سقفا saqfan/roof of محفوظا maḥfūẓan/protection of وهم and they عن about اىتها signs its معرضون away turning

The earth?s atmosphere is "a protection" from sun's harmful radiation, meteors, etc. and protects ?all life on earth? and likewise creates greenhouse effect without which would be freezing!

You?re one of the most ignorant simpleton posters that cannot read/comprehend a thing mindlessly parroting verses ?instead of spamming like you have diarrhea, go to the edge of your stupid flat earth and jump!

2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

The above is exactly 19 letters if you?re into stupid numerology stuff.

10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Solved: Zina = homewrecking, female adultery
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 09:58:20 AM »
The above poster gives no greeting of peace
1.   there?s no peace in your last 10 posts

and, in typical fashion tackles a small portion of a post with something without having a grasp or argument.
2.   your post is a rant/mindless braying (31:19)

Also, since the topic of this thread includes slander, moderators are welcomed to enforce forum rules against him for his recent post:

3.   you accused me about āyātihā turning away
Quote
*This group seems to include Noon.

4.   your signature (removed) was another

25:63 ... واذا and when خاطبهم address them الجاهلون the ignorant being قلوا say/reply they of سلاما salāman

Peace!

progressive1993

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Re: Solved: Zina = cuckolding, female adultery
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 02:47:56 AM »
A better translation for "zina" is "cuckolding." This correct interpretation makes a lot of sense especially considering how polygyny is permitted. It is forbidden to even go near zina. If zina included male adultery in general, then that would create a problem with not being able to go near zina.

Similarly, fornication is only punished if women do it (unless a single man cuckolds a married man by sleeping with his wife, which is "zina") - see 4:15-16. 4:15 mentions female fornicators and 4:16 mentions male homosexuals.

Men arent subject to the same punishments, roles and responsibilities as women. One likely reason is that they are providers for women and the family.

I have new hypotheses about muhsanati, MMA and fatayatikum min MMA, but I do not feel like sharing them now. Along with this last piece of the puzzle, the sexual laws and male-female relationships are solved.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Solved: Zina = cuckolding, female adultery
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 07:32:28 AM »
4:16 mentions male

no, pay attention to masculine language usage which can apply to any gender.

2:4 والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones (masculine plural; applies to any gender) ...

4:16 واللذن wa-alladhani/and the two (masculine dual; applies to any gender) ...


progressive1993

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Re: Solved: Zina = cuckolding, female adultery
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 03:14:28 PM »
I already explained this in another thread. I do not discuss with Noon, since he is rude, but for others: 4:15 mentions "those (female plural) FROM AMONG YOUR WOMEN and 4:16 says "those (dual male) FROM AMONG YOU. It would not say "from among your women" and "from among you" if the Quran was not addressed to men, and if 4:15 was not specifically talking about punishing women and 4:16 about punishing men. Also, I have a lot more about this, but again: no need to share with Feminist-Minds at this point.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Solved: Zina = cuckolding, female adultery
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 10:39:17 PM »
I already explained this in another thread. I do not discuss with Noon, since he is rude, but for others: 4:15 mentions "those (female plural) FROM AMONG YOUR WOMEN and 4:16 says "those (dual male) FROM AMONG YOU. It would not say "from among your women" and "from among you" if the Quran was not addressed to men, and if 4:15 was not specifically talking about punishing women and 4:16 about punishing men. Also, I have a lot more about this, but again: no need to share with Feminist-Minds at this point.

Not my problem you cannot read or understand a thing and keep posting incorrect rants.

رجلىن rajulayni/menfolk two

Arabic is a masculine dominant language similar to saying "hey guys" when addressing 1 man and 99 women...

2:21 ىاىها O you الناس the humankind (masculine pl.) اعبدوا devotes ye of ربكم lord yours (masculine pl.) الذى the one خلقكم creation yours (masculine pl.) والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones (masculine pl.) من from قبلكم before you (masculine pl.) لعلكم perhaps you (masculine pl.) تتقون righteous being

4:16 واللذن wa-alladhani/and the two (masculine dual) ىاتىنها bringeth dual it منكم among you فاذوهما so abuse ye them dual فان so if تابا turn/repent dual واصلحا and reconciles/amends dual فاعرضوا so turn away ye of عنهما about them dual ان indeed الله the god كان be توابا frequent of رحىما merciful of

39:33 والذى wa-alladhī/and the one (masculine singular) جا came بالصدق in the truth وصدق and sincere به in it اولىك those هم themselves المتقون the righteous being







 

huruf

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Re: Solved: Zina = cuckolding, female adultery
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 01:01:05 AM »
Not my problem you cannot read or understand a thing and keep posting incorrect rants.

رجلىن rajulayni/menfolk two

Arabic is a masculine dominant language similar to saying "hey guys" when addressing 1 man and 99 women...

2:21 ىاىها O you الناس the humankind (masculine pl.) اعبدوا devotes ye of ربكم lord yours (masculine pl.) الذى the one خلقكم creation yours (masculine pl.) والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones (masculine pl.) من from قبلكم before you (masculine pl.) لعلكم perhaps you (masculine pl.) تتقون righteous being

4:16 واللذن wa-alladhani/and the two (masculine dual) ىاتىنها bringeth dual it منكم among you فاذوهما so abuse ye them dual فان so if تابا turn/repent dual واصلحا and reconciles/amends dual فاعرضوا so turn away ye of عنهما about them dual ان indeed الله the god كان be توابا frequent of رحىما merciful of

39:33 والذى wa-alladhī/and the one (masculine singular) جا came بالصدق in the truth وصدق and sincere به in it اولىك those هم themselves المتقون the righteous being


I do not think it is correct to say that "it is a masculine dominant language". I think that the same as Spanish, German and many other languages there is a form that is used equally for both genders when mixed and for masculine. In Spanish grammar it is called "unmarked", that i, a form that bears no gender mark. In order for it to be masculine there must be something in the text or speech that makes it so, if not, it is to be understood as including both genders. Feminine is marked as femenine, it cannot apply to both genders, but there is no masculine by itself but the unmarked gender that if the text warrants makes it masculine, if not, it includes both. That is, to say that a set with 100, 99 women is masculine is untruth, to say that it is feminine is equally untruth. No it contains both masculine and femenine, so we use the unmarked form which includes both and which is used for masculine. In order to say whether it is only masculine objects or beings that are included, it must be given so to understand somewhere int he text or speech, otherwise it should be taken to include both.

Arabic also does so, and it is made clear int he Qur'an where some expression is applied to a woman and we are told she is of the saliheen, or the qaniteen or whatever, that is, she belongs to the set of women and men that are saalih or qanit. It is so obvious that it is shocking that still some people here int he forum come with nonsense like the unmarked form is masculine and only masculine. That shows that they do not understand neither Arabic nor qur'an nor want to understand them, and no matter how many times they are told, they carry on with the nonsense. 

Salaam
Salaam

progressive1993

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Re: Solved: Zina = cuckolding, female adultery
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 02:22:49 AM »
My understanding makes a lot of sense in a further way: Even going near "zina" is forbidden. If zina meant adultery in general, then polygyny could be seen as "going near zina" since men would be meeting with women for potential marriage. However since polygyny is allowed and zina does not refer to relations between married men and single women it is not zina and we can approach these single women without going near zina.

Also, is it any surprise that porn producers, of which the most or many prominent ones are Jewish, have made "cuckolding" a fetish category? They are trying to weaken men, destroy families and go against any and all teachings of God. Just like the mental illnesses of homosexuality and gender dysphoria have been normalized.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."