Author Topic: Sanaa Quran no diatrical marks and vowel points, Syriac-Aramaic crossover  (Read 17962 times)

HP_TECH

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What do you think of this video?

Click the Quran image below.



Is this German's linguist interpretation earnest?

Or is it true that the interpretation should reflect Arabian culture and understanding not a bordering Syriac one, despite its similarities?

Is there not an even older Quran than this one discovered?

Does the condition of superimposed text over older and erased text, truly indicate rearrangement and changing of words?

If the premise is that this copy is unique from previous and present copies then words in this copy should not match text in older copies in terms of arrangement etc..


I realize it is old and it has probably been discussed thoroughly tons of times.


However for my sake, please feel free to comment, provide links, debunk it, discuss it and peacefully so.

Thank you all in advance
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

The Sardar

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What do you think of this video?

Click the Quran image below.



Is this German's linguist interpretation earnest?

Or is it true that the interpretation should reflect Arabian culture and understanding not a bordering Syriac one, despite its similarities?

Is there not an even older Quran than this one discovered?

Does the condition of superimposed text over older and erased text, truly indicate rearrangement and changing of words?

If the premise is that this copy is unique from previous and present copies then words in this copy should not match text in older copies in terms of arrangement etc..


I realize it is old and it has probably been discussed thoroughly tons of times.


However for my sake, please feel free to comment, provide links, debunk it, discuss it and peacefully so.

Thank you all in advance
There is this video made by a muslim responding to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu58q4KoQuE

Makaveli

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There are several copies of the Qur'an available and they are not the same because they differ in transliteration, i.e. the diacritical marks were added later on when Arabic grammar was developing. Earliest manuscripts lack those marks. Transliteration does indeed change the meaning greatly. It only takes replacement of two dots in 9:28 to change the meaning from "let them not apporach" to "you apporach not", which greatly changes the meaning and pretty much destroys the pillar of hajj.

Secondly, Qur'an is written in poetic form, its pre-Islamic poetical style is evident in sura 91, for instance, as well as al-fatiha as well as other surahs. Here you can take a look at the analysis of poetical influence in the text of the Qur'an: https://books.google.ee/books?id=Bdq3AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=why+sura+91+ends+with+ha&source=bl&ots=fErg4gPMRb&sig=-B1Zelhqj-yBQYBY0CFob9XigWg&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnidO-2ffWAhUqOpoKHRXqCfgQ6AEILjAA#v=onepage&q=why%20sura%2091%20ends%20with%20ha&f=false

That being said, taking words of the Qur'an, especially nouns, literally as per traditional tafsir-influenced interpretation is of no use. Muhammad is not a father of mankind..oh thanks cap'n obvious. Or if you are good with the orphans marry women that you like two three or four...what does it have to do with the orphans? All wives are orphans? Well, how many wings do angels have in such case (35:1)? And countless of other examples.

Secondly, all semitic languages share same roots, which means that the only possible way to understand the meaning of the Qur'an is to see the old lexicons, such as Taj-Al Roos or Lane's. What is difficult here is not so much of finding the ancient meaning of the words in the lexicons, but the methodology. There should be clear methodology as to what one wants to achieve. Such as if he wants to portray the God of Qur'an to be a jealous guy who will tortue anyone who does not worship him, or he wants to find some other explanation to anything. And the only way to do so is to use previous teachings, that include the Injeel, the Tanakh, the Ditta and others, even the Epic of Gilgamesh may shed some light, but I believe it was also severely mistranslated. Qur'an alone is not enough as the traditional understanding of it is still tafsir-influenced.

I haven't yet read the book by Christopher Luxenburg but I will and see if it makes any sense, but they did not re-transate the Qur'an, but only some of the verses, such as they changed the meaning of what is traditionally understood by hoorines to mean something else when applied the syria-aramaic meaning and some other examples.
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good logic

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To me it is irrelevant what anybody says about old or new manuscripts. We have what we see in front of us now.
The main task is to find out its contents . Analyse/study/dissect ...Then see what you  make out of what you have inside Qoran.

This Qoran that is available /exist in Arabic needs to be studied by its own merit . Look at its contents and take on the challenge it is offering you. i.e to find out who the author is and what the message is saying!!!!!

Who  has not heard of Qoran at this age? What are they saying about what it contains/the message is the most important things ,not how it got here!!!!
GOD bless.
Peace 
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Makaveli

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To me it is irrelevant what anybody says about old or new manuscripts. We have what we see in front of us now.

So is it irrelevant to you what the manuscript originally said?

The main task is to find out its contents . Analyse/study/dissect ...Then see what you  make out of what you have inside Qoran.


This Qoran that is available /exist in Arabic needs to be studied by its own merit . Look at its contents and take on the challenge it is offering you. i.e to find out who the author is and what the message is saying!!!!!

Contextual analysis is a dubious methodology, it may explain few things but without deep linguistic understanding it is of no use. Tell me how many wives can one have in the context of the same phrase in 35:1? Unless you give me a thorough explanation then the contextual analysis is of no use without proper linguistic understanding.


Who  has not heard of Qoran at this age?

More people than you think. Even if 'heard' was any argument at all I could ask who has not heard of Mormon bible at this age? So what? Have you not heard about Christian Domostroi?
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HP_TECH

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Remain peaceful
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

good logic

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Quote from Makaveli:
More people than you think. Even if 'heard' was any argument at all I could ask who has not heard of Mormon bible at this age? So what? Have you not heard about Christian Domostroi?

That is why we should  look at the contents. it  is the most logical thing to do.

And of course it is irrelevant to me what the old manuscript has said if I do not have it. If someone claims to have it ,then make it available,all of it,for studying and comparison!!!!!

Further more ,regarding your question:Tell me how many wives can one have in the context of the same phrase in 35:1? Unless you give me a thorough explanation then the contextual analysis is of no use without proper linguistic understanding.
 I see no connection between 35:1 and the number of wives.To me if one follows the best advice in Qoran ,only one wife is allowed for justice and common sense.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Noon waalqalami

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What do you think of this video?

Click the Quran image below.



Is this German's linguist interpretation earnest?

Is there not an even older Quran than this one discovered?

Peace, sloppy work as are most and at 2:00 minute him saying being oldest dated 705-715 CE is false.

Ma VI 165 in T?bingen University Library was dated by radiocarbon technique to between 649 and 675 CE.

http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=4739

To me it is irrelevant what anybody says about old or new manuscripts. We have what we see in front of us now.

Today's manuscripts are rift with to many alifs not precise to distinguish words especially address to plural or singular etc.

It only takes replacement of two dots in 9:28 to change the meaning from "let them not apporach" to "you apporach not", which greatly changes the meaning and pretty much destroys the pillar of hajj.

The scribes had a system to distinguish and in that context never written with ي‎ to mean "you" rather with ت ...

2:187 فلا so not تقربوها taqrabūhā/thou approach ye them
2:222 ولا and not تقربوهن taqrabūhunna/thou approach ye them
4:43  لا not تقربوا taqrabū/thou approach ye of الصلوه the connection (outer) وانتم and are you سكارى intoxicated ...
6:151  ولا and not تقربوا taqrabū/thou approach ye of الفواحش the immorality ...
6:152 ولا and not تقربوا taqrabū/thou approach ye of مال wealth الىتىم the orphan
9:28 فلا so not ىقربوا yaqrabū/approached they of


Sana_Qur_an_ch9v25-30.


Or if you are good with the orphans marry women that you like two three or four...what does it have to do with the orphans? All wives are orphans? Well, how many wings do angels have in such case (35:1)?

It's about groups ... مثنى mathnā/twosome وثلث wathulātha/and three ورباع warubāʿa/and quadruple





Makaveli

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That is why we should  look at the contents. it  is the most logical thing to do.

The context has gazillion inconsistencies if taken from traditional translation. Who is Eebles in 2:34? And why are the khafirun refered as human/people in another verse? And how can Eebles be of kafiirun in case he is clearly talking to God in a number of verses. Context has no credibility here.

And of course it is irrelevant to me what the old manuscript has said if I do not have it. If someone claims to have it ,then make it available,all of it,for studying and comparison!!!!!

Like an abudance of exclamation marks in all your senteces will somehow make you convince me in your [il]logical disource more... the old manuscript is there, diacritic marks, however, not.

I see no connection between 35:1

Neither do I. So how can you be sure chapter 4 is speaking about wives?
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Makaveli

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The scribes had a system to distinguish and in that context never written with ي‎ to mean "you" rather with ت ...

2:187 فلا so not تقربوها taqrabūhā/thou approach ye them
2:222 ولا and not تقربوهن taqrabūhunna/thou approach ye them
4:43  لا not تقربوا taqrabū/thou approach ye of الصلوه the connection (outer) وانتم and are you سكارى intoxicated ...
6:151  ولا and not تقربوا taqrabū/thou approach ye of الفواحش the immorality ...
6:152 ولا and not تقربوا taqrabū/thou approach ye of مال wealth الىتىم the orphan
9:28 فلا so not ىقربوا yaqrabū/approached they of


Well, I have another info on 9:28, where you take that from? If we look at other verses where taqrabu is used it always is used in negative. Take a look at Gerran's 9:28.


It's about groups ... مثنى mathnā/twosome وثلث wathulātha/and three ورباع warubāʿa/and quadruple

So?
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