Author Topic: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited  (Read 815 times)

progressive1993

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Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« on: October 10, 2017, 10:56:44 AM »
I want to revisit this issue. This post is meant as a starting point for a discussion. There has been much debate about this topic, especially MMA in the past (inb4 MMA fighting jokes). There has been the usual debate ranging from apologist/feminist opinions to more chauvinist ones. Now, here is an interesting verse I came across:

33:53 O you (men) who have trusted, do not enter the prophet's households except if you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. When you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a hadith. This used to annoy the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. If you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. It is not for you to harm God's messenger nor should marry his wives after him. This is a gross offence with God.

Clearly men were not to intermigle with the prophet's wives and not marry them after. The prophet's wives were called the "mothers of the believers" - could also denote that they legally cannot have sex with them.

33:54 If you (i.e. those who have trusted) reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.

33:55 There is no harm (junah) upon them (i.e. wives of the prophet) before their fathers, nor their sons, nor their brothers, nor the sons of their brothers, nor the sons of their sisters, nor their offspring yet to come, nor their women, nor ma malakat aymanakum. Be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.

So basically, men are not allowed to intermingle with them, but ma malakat aymankum can. Thus, this refers to females, as it does in most if not all other verses in The Reading as far as I know. Furthermore, this rejects the assumption that ma malakat aymanakum are somehow women that simply "fled their husbands" who fought the believers/trusters. Clearly, these are women who for whom the wives of the propher are in charge.

Similarly we can see something interesting in 24:58

24:58 O you who believe, let those who (you) malakat aymankum and those who have not attained puberty amongst you request your permission regarding three times: before the dawn commitment, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening commitment. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So what I understand from this verse is that ma malakat aymanakum shouldn't be in male believers' naked presence (i.e. when they wash and change)? Maybe this has a different implication however. Clearly the children amongst the believers are separate from MMA. Why do they need to ask permission, and what would be the difference when they have attained puberty? Also, it is interesting that it is before the dawn commitment and after the evening commitment. So I do not think that this refers to washing after the evening commitment since they would have done that before already. Perhaps it is because they just come home from the gathering place where they upheld the salat with the other believers/the prophet.

4:23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your fathers' sisters, your mothers' sisters, the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, your foster mothers who suckled you, your sisters from suckling, the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

4:24 Also forbidden are al muhsanati, except ma malakat aymanakum, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

The term muhsanati is interesting. According to chapter 24, which I will quote later, muhsanati cannot commit zina. Believing men are prohibited from having sex with muhsanati except MMA. Why?

70:29-30 Those who conceal/guard over their private parts, except around their spouses or ma malakat aymanakum, there is no blame.

Some translators (perhaps apologists?) translate "or" as "that is" which is completely arbitrary. Clearly sex is allowed with either a spouse or MMA. Usually these directives are for men so we can look at it from that perspective.

So perhaps muhsanati are married women and MMA are war captives as is understood by many. MMA are lawful for sex in any case according to 70:30, but perhaps not if the man already has a wife (since it says "or"). Also, as per chapter 35, we can see that there were MMA in the household of the prophet, and they were mentioned while the subject was the prophet's wives. What was MMA's role in this case? Just servants? Obviously they could not have been male since even male believers were asked to keep distance from the prohpet's wives.

So are MMA female war captives in general that were servants/assigned to a believer's household and if the believer was not married they could arrange sexual relations?

Or do they refer to simply fleeing women/ex-wives of enemy combatants that lived under the believers' households and were under their care? Were they servants or not? I do not think that MMA can be male since otherwise they would not be able to be in the prohpet's wives relaxed presence (i.e. not behind a barrier nor relaxing dress code) and they would not be sexually lawful for believing men (alaatheena amanoo).

This will obviously have some implications for zina as well. My latest thoughts while I pondered this topic was: perhaps zina refers to all sex with partners that are neither MMA nor spouses. Thus, it would refer to fornication. Next, I thought the implication of zina encompassing all pre-marital sex including rape. This obviously raises an interesting point with the four witnesses. Needless to say, it would be extremely hard to get convicted for zina if it is simply for consensual pre-marital sex (and adultery). It would have to be sex that causes lots of attention - i.e. lots of noise and perhaps outside of a home. Chapter 24 also tells people to be respectful about privacy rights in homes. Does this refer more to "morality police," not having sex with strangers or both? Also, husbands themselves as the only witness when testifying against their wife having committed zina. Perhaps because he could see it directly while his wife was cheating and he walked in on her?

So what is nushuz then - it cannot overlap zina because no directive for zina is given nor the lashes as punishment in 4:34. This is out of question. Some say it means disloyalty while others say it means haughtiness/ill-treatment or a combination. What is the evidence for any of these cases?

I welcome everyone for discussion.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

brook

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 09:19:07 PM »
So what I understand from this verse is that ma malakat aymanakum shouldn't be in male believers' naked presence (i.e. when they wash and change)? Maybe this has a different implication however. Clearly the children amongst the believers are separate from MMA. Why do they need to ask permission, and what would be the difference when they have attained puberty? Also, it is interesting that it is before the dawn commitment and after the evening commitment. So I do not think that this refers to washing after the evening commitment since they would have done that before already. Perhaps it is because they just come home from the gathering place where they upheld the salat with the other believers/the prophet.


What I understand from 24:58 is different.

Ma meleket eymanukun are those whom your oaths relate to you. The status of each of them is defined by your oath. If you made an oath to look after him/her, he/she is in a way your adopted child (33:55). If you made an oath to marry him/her, he/she is your spouse (33:50).

The status of those whom you made an oath to look after is the same as the status of your biological cihildren. It makes no difference whether your biological children have attained to pubetty (24:59) or whether they have NOT attained to puberty  (24:58), they are to ask you as their parents for permission to enter your room at the three times mentioned in 24:58. And so are your mma.

Wakas

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 02:11:39 AM »
peace,

70:29-30 Those who conceal/guard over their private parts, except around their spouses or ma malakat aymanakum, there is no blame.

...Clearly sex is allowed with either a spouse or MMA.

No, this is an assumption, which may or may not be correct. Further evidence would be required to prove it.

Quote
So are MMA female war captives in general that were servants/assigned to a believer's household and if the believer was not married they could arrange sexual relations?

I cannot find the concept of keeping "war captives" for personal use in Quran. Further evidence would be required to prove this.

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Next, I thought the implication of zina encompassing all pre-marital sex including rape.

Rape is covered within this (with a punishment range of: banishment to death)

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So what is nushuz then

see: http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2

Quote
"uprising" (Arabic: nushuz, root: Nun-Shiin-Zay) is the literal meaning and in context means rising up (above relationship/marital limits).
It is interesting to note that there is a measure of relativity about nushuz in the sense that what constitutes nushuz in the eyes of one person may not be so viewed by another, or the judgment that one's spouse has been guilty of nushuz is partly a subjective and personal one. That is why the verse says: "if you fear nushuz..." instead of for example, "if you find nushuz...". In other words, nushuz is unlikely to mean something in the husband's presence or obvious/blatant in his presence as 4:34 says "if you fear", so it is reasonable to assume it refers to something not done in the husband's presence. This could be related to the earlier use of "...guardians to the unseen...". If we take these factors into account, it suggests unseen "disloyalty/infidelity/ill-conduct/rebellion" in some way.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Faith

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 04:07:40 AM »
peace,

No, this is an assumption, which may or may not be correct. Further evidence would be required to prove it.
AN ASSUMPTION?!? 70:29-30 speaks for itself, unless you read from a different book!!
Peace.


Note:
This post has been edited by a moderator due to language.
my Lord and your Lord is on a straight path, not a curved one.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 09:34:18 AM »
Clearly sex is allowed with either a spouse or MMA.

AN ASSUMPTION?!? 70:29-30 speaks for itself, unless you read from a different book!!

23:1 قد hence افلح succeed المومنون the believing ...

Peace, what are you suggesting "sex" in context 23:1-13; not applicable to all believing men and women?

Likewise please apply in context of 33:50-55?







imrankhawaja

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 04:03:25 PM »

Peace, what are you suggesting "sex" in context 23:1-13; not applicable to all believing men and women?


peace i agree with you and infact you are right even the chap 66 is only addressed to the wives of prophets along with advices

but what i dnt understand quran use two different terms with different set of rules for MMA and spouse(zoja) the spouse part is almost clear and agreeable in almost all socities

we need to give more consideration to MMA so i already put some of my thoughts hunting this word and nature of that thing compatible to the ongoing civilised socitey

so far people  findings for that term

MMA = girlfriends
MMA= partners without marriage contract
MMA = doctors Lol
MMA = slaves ( poor interpretation)
MMA= warcaptives (poor interpretation)
MMA = Londi(servant) poor interpretation

now i m adding some more insight in it just come in the mind 😜

MMA = prositute
before taking it as mockery u guys need to see where i m coming from

when u agree on sex its actually a contract with terms to give advantage to both parties

one is getting money for the services she provided by her body
one is getting the sex driven beast to calm down without any hurdle of stucking in to responisibilties like kids food shelter etc

in this way the crime of rape get less
the girl who is doing prositution is using her body same like we all use our bodies for earning money 

so when you give a money in excahnge of anything its mean the thing is rightfully yours

which your right hand possess hahaha its not a joke coz now a days adavnace countries are charging tax on prositution think about it for a while and in this catagory i may agree with somebody who once said MMA can b male or female both thats why we also have male escort services

SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 02:07:49 AM »
MMA = prositute

peace, have you cross-referenced all (15) occurrences? what prostitutes have to do with bereaved/orphans?

4:3 او or ما ma/what ملكت malakat/control اىمنكم aymanukum/right hands yours

24:58  لىستاذنكم let asked permission yours الذىن the ones ملكت malakat/control اىمنكم aymanukum/right hands yours

30:28 هل shall لكم for you من from/among ما ma/what ملكت malakat/control اىمنكم aymanukum/right hands yours من from/any شركا associates of فى in ما what رزقنكم provision we you فانتم so you فىه in it سوا equitable

33:52 لا not ىحل lawful لك to you النسا the womenfolk من from بعد after ولا and not ان that تبدل thou change بهن in them من from ازوج spouses ولو and in case اعجبك pleases you حسنهن beauty theirs الا except ما ma/what ملكت malakat/control ىمىنك yaminuka/right hand your وكان and be الله the god على on كل each شى thing رقىبا watchful of



imrankhawaja

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 02:25:40 AM »
peace noon

u misunderstood where i m coming from

in short i said the term MMA is broad word and possibilty of using this role can cover even prositute

prositute is rightfully yours as long you pay her for her time

sunni and shia are also struggling in finding this thing out

intrestingly in pakistan the famous prositution place works under shia laws of nikka mutta and all are license holders

as brother jaffar said look the good/bad by how you percieved it

sex for prositute is not a pleasure but a business for living her livlihood

and lot of prositutes have kids too its not a big matter

the last refference is also indicating that why sex is allowed with (azwaj) only with the only exception MMA cox mma is the only way u can get sex legalised

"which way"its up to the person what his circumstances make him

mma is a special type of women group who sale the narural pleasure and when wars happen they get traded the only difference is the change of ownership and time by time this catagory spread to more catagories under same term

i have ro write a lot in it i feel i still did not highlight all those things related to MMA and evonution of MMA from day first till today
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 01:01:50 PM »
in short i said the term MMA is broad word and possibilty of using this role can cover even prositute

prositute is rightfully yours as long you pay her for her time

17:32 ولا and not تقربوا thou approach ye of الزن l-zina انه indeed it كان be فحشه immorality وسا and evil سبىلا path of

imrankhawaja

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Re: Ma malakat aymanakum, muhsanati, zina and nushuz revisited
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 05:30:50 PM »
17:32 ولا and not تقربوا thou approach ye of الزن l-zina انه indeed it كان be فحشه immorality وسا and evil سبىلا path of

exactly we should not approch any immoralty

like working hard for earning money = morality= honesty
not doing the commited job and get salary = immorality =dishonesty

doing sexual act giving money(mahar) = morality = rightfully owned

doing sexual act and not giving anything= immorality = zina

immorality = lie, cheat, steal, rob, beatup, zina, fahisha,

brother noon i m not saying that mma= confirm prositution

what i am on about is to see this term and understand it by how all these things like war caltives stuff is all interlinked with it


interestingly the war captives and having sex with then was in the early books of our heros like khalid bin waleed who do this thing ( God knows better)

lets focus on this what MMA was and what MMA is now

i give it a first go
let say a tribe invade an area and they also invades all MMA from that areas. who are these MMA and at that time they were brutalised and then good people give them their dues and slowly slowly it evolved to a totally different shape due to the inprovement in society we feel and gove them same love and respect what we give to our spouses or wives

lets go on it at first it was a need of a women to feed herself and shelter in return to make a man happy so she agreed after a period of time it become a group and then organisation and then mob and then a free lancer tupe thing in a society where there is need for MMA to beg for food and shelter which is already provided to them by gov so thats y sunni people say that its not valid now at this time instead of figuring out what it was

brother noon i m bot debating i m actually going back to the root of this thing i have lot of other stuff to share if God willing so you can also share tour stuff with me regarding MMA

God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.