Author Topic: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?  (Read 3123 times)

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 11:47:43 AM »
Thanks.  If I understand you correctly, 'ill and 'aal are the "two different roots" you are referring to?  And the "two different words" you are referring to are ill in ill yasin and 'aal in 'aal 3imraan?

I'm not familiar with the transliteration you are using. 
1) Can you tell me which arabic letters for these two roots?
2) Can you give me other relevant verses where this word/root ill/'ill are used?  You've suggested that we , but I need to know the Arabic letters to do so.

Since you are of the position that إل ياسين are two words, then I suspect you would agree that these sources I have cited have all made a mistake when they treat it as a single word?
Can you show some evidence of that?


HP_TECH: are you asking for evidence that 'ill yaasiin" is 2 words, or that 'ill means linneage, pact?

'ill  = hamza-lam-lam
'aal = hamza-waw-lam

As to occurrences of 'ill, I guess you do not know corpus.quran.com. It is a wonderful instrument to find out this kind of thing. You go to the dictionnary there and get the root letters and it shows all the occurrences of the root collected in their different categories. See for 'ill:



9:8:8) illan   (of) kinship   كَيْفَ وَإِنْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَيْكُمْ لَا يَرْقُبُوا فِيكُمْ إِلًّا وَلَا ذِمَّةً
(9:10:5) illan   (of) kinship   لَا يَرْقُبُونَ فِي مُؤْمِنٍ إِلًّا وَلَا ذِمَّةً وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُعْتَدُونَ



I have quoted what appears for 'ill, but as you see there are only two entries and one of them is not 'ill Yasin, because I guess it considers it proper noun and although I have seen that there have been improvements in the site regarding that, I guess not every possible improvement is yet introduced. Even with small things like that the site is a blessing and gift from God, it is so useful and it helps a lot people to look for themselves and verify in a shorter time things that otherwise would take ages.

I take the opportunity to commend once more those who put up the formidable work for this enormous service to muslims and studious people. May God reward them generously.

Salaam

SAbboushi

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 01:38:30 PM »
As to occurrences of 'ill, I guess you do not know corpus.quran.com. It is a wonderful instrument to find out this kind of thing.

Yes I agree: I find corpus.quran.com to be very useful!  I just wish Kais Dukes would finish the Syntactic Treebank, but he told me a few years ago that he does not plan to... he's too busy with wife, kids, job...

I have quoted what appears for 'ill, but as you see there are only two entries and one of them is not 'ill Yasin, because I guess it considers it proper noun and although I have seen that there have been improvements in the site regarding that, I guess not every possible improvement is yet introduced.

Actually their list of roots is from zekr.org which Kais believes to be an accurate verified root list for the Quran (according to his thesis for which he developed corpus.quran.com); even so, they apparently (already) changed the root provided by zekr from الياسين to الياس.

Is it just me, or do you (or others) find a contradiction there:
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%3CiloyaAs#(37:130:3)
If the proper name is "إِلْيَاس" per that page, can one modify a proper name to be إِلْ يَاسِينَ, and separate the first 2 letters of the proper name... (i.e. make it... two words)?

I appreciate the help you and others have given.  It has helped me to reframe my question as:

Why is إل ياسين in 37:130 treated as one word instead of two?

Would appreciate any additional comments from other posters on the info I've provided in this thread

Peace--

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5268
  • Karma +4/-0
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 01:54:37 PM »
I still think it is two words.Let me elaborate more.

"Ilyas" has not become "Ill-Yaseen" as in one word . In that context  "Ilyas" has become "Aal-Ilyas" shortened "Ill-Yaseen" two words, because Qoran has its own rules for grammar,spellings and pronunciation. When you look at the meaning of the verses in context ,you get the idea that GOD is saying Peace on Ilyas and AAl-Ilyas( heavy word in Arabic to say/pronounce, instead Qoran uses - Ill-Yaseen- i.e those like Ilyas( spiritual family/lineage of Ilyas).

My understanding. Unless of course someone comes up with a better understanding/explanation.
GOD bless.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

SAbboushi

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 03:35:28 PM »
Thanks - that makes a lot of sense to me.  And it seems obvious.

But then I'm mystified / dumbfounded by why the three word by word translations and websites and dictionaries I've already cited do not (to me) seem to support this explanation... and thus treat it as one word...??



HP_TECH

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2017, 12:43:41 PM »

HP_TECH: are you asking for evidence that 'ill yaasiin" is 2 words, or that 'ill means linneage, pact?

I was asking for evidence that ill means lineage, pact. I am still waiting for evidence of that.
There should at least be similar examples. I am also not strong in grammar of Quran and would like to verify the truthfulness of that claim.

Verification can be achieved by citations, so I am waiting...
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7360
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 01:21:53 PM »
Yes I agree: I find corpus.quran.com to be very useful!  I just wish Kais Dukes would finish the Syntactic Treebank, but he told me a few years ago that he does not plan to... he's too busy with wife, kids, job...

Actually their list of roots is from zekr.org which Kais believes to be an accurate verified root list for the Quran (according to his thesis for which he developed corpus.quran.com); even so, they apparently (already) changed the root provided by zekr from الياسين to الياس.

Is it just me, or do you (or others) find a contradiction there:
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%3CiloyaAs#(37:130:3)
If the proper name is "إِلْيَاس" per that page, can one modify a proper name to be إِلْ يَاسِينَ, and separate the first 2 letters of the proper name... (i.e. make it... two words)?

I appreciate the help you and others have given.  It has helped me to reframe my question as:

Why is إل ياسين in 37:130 treated as one word instead of two?

Would appreciate any additional comments from other posters on the info I've provided in this thread

Peace--


It has nothing to do with stemming from Root ء ل ل; similarly it has nothing to do with from Root ء و ل.

It is proper noun and diptote. It is name of a foreign language spelled in Arabic in matching sound of the original language.

The proper names of foreign language are transcribed in target language by spelling them in such manner that they sound as near to the sound in their original language.
Moreover, it is not uncommon that a person is differently called or known by two names.
Ayah 123 to 132 is a paragraph like. The topic of the paragraph is Ilyas alahisalam.
His name is later spelled by the above word.

Except for pronunciation of the original language, the first part neither has root origin nor meanings.

SAbboushi

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2017, 08:26:34 AM »
Thanks Mazhar - so it seems you're in agreement with Omar's findings:

Quote
Omar (Dictionary of the Holy Quran) lists إل ياسين under the root الياس (p. 29)
...  According to some it is another form of Ily?s, and both words designate the same person, as Sain?' and S?n?n are both names of Mount Senai.

Even so, I'm not sure that explains why the name is written as two words instead of one?

Anyone?

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7360
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2017, 09:45:54 AM »
Thanks Mazhar - so it seems you're in agreement with Omar's findings:

Even so, I'm not sure that explains why the name is written as two words instead of one?

Anyone?

Not two words, it is one word; pause after first syllable -- if space is not there the word gets conjoined, and there will be no pause. The word is spelled to mimic the sound of name in original language.

SAbboushi

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2017, 03:46:40 PM »
Interesting.  Thanks-

uq

  • Global Moderator
  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Posts: 407
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 01:26:53 PM »
Peace all,

The construction إِلۡ يَاسِين is highly irregular.

The prefix إِلۡ is not likely to be the definite article (the) because the definite article never occurs with a Kasra in Arabic.

The suffix يَاسِين is peculiar in that it phonetically spells out the first verse of chapter 36, whether this has any bearing on the meaning I cannot say.

My suspicion is that Il Yāsīn is a variation of the spelling of Ilyās, albeit non-Arabicized, whereas, Ilyās has been Arabicized.

The most likely explanation, in my view, is the one presented by Mazhar, in that it is a phonetical 'mimicking' of the original non-Arabic name.

Bear in mind that two other Readings (Nāfi' and Ibn 'Āmir) report the construction as آلِ يَاسِين meaning the family of Yāsīn.

God knows best.
uq