Author Topic: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?  (Read 3122 times)

SAbboushi

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Does anyone know the basis for making إل ياسين two words instead of one?

huruf

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 12:31:37 AM »
I is two words, 'ill yaasiin", 'ill means linneage, pact.

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HP_TECH

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 12:48:42 AM »
I is two words, 'ill yaasiin", 'ill means linneage, pact.

Salaam
Can you show some evidence of that?
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Man of Faith

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 02:19:16 AM »
Because "ياسين" is a name and possibly including group reference. Grammar prevents AL to be written together with the name but has to be written separately. If not, AL would naturally be written together with the word.

Question is who are the Yaasiyin. Worth investigating. If I know Quran well enough it is one of those code-like expressions. I find it interesting that you brought it up. Linguistically the word is a very primitive one containing simple letters, so its meaning ought to be quite forth telling.

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good logic

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 03:51:01 AM »
huruf is right. It just means lineage/family of/prodigy/.... People of similar values /ways /....        like "آل عمران " for example: tTwo words "AAl" And Yaseen.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصطَفىٰ ءادَمَ وَنوحًا وَءالَ إِبرٰهيمَ وَءالَ عِمرٰنَ عَلَى العٰلَمينَ

So AAl- Yassen just means those who have similar ways/values. i.e Peace on Yaseen and on those who have similar ways/values as Yaseen.
My take.
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Man of Faith

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 04:07:39 AM »
Good logic, in that case AL would be written as linked to the word.
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huruf

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 04:19:37 AM »
Can you show some evidence of that?

Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.


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SAbboushi

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 07:42:54 AM »
Thanks very much for your replies.

What seems odd to me:
1) it is the only word in the Quran (per Tanzil.net) which has an embedded space.  If it is 2 separate words, then why is it numbered as 1 word 37:130:3 instead of
  37:130:3   إل
  37:130:4   ياسين

2) noorsoft.org lists the root as الياسين (which it seems to me contradicts it being 2 words?)

3) Omar (Dictionary of the Holy Quran) lists إل ياسين under the root الياس (p. 29):
Quote
Ily?s?n is the plu. of Ily?s amd means Ily?s and his followers.  According to some it is another form of Ily?s, and both words designate the same person, as Sain?' and S?n?n are both names of Mount Senai.
But then Omar writes it with a space and says it means "People of Elijah" which seems to me different than "the plu. of Ily?s" ("Ily?s-ians" comes to my mind).
Omar p. 29:
Quote
أل ياسِين People of Elijah; Elijah (37:130). 
Is this not contradictory?  If الياس is the proper name, and (as he says)
Quote
Ily?s?n is the plu. of Ily?s
, then I'm confused why he then separates the word instead of just adding the suffix -in as he seems to be suggesting?  "Yaasiyin" as Man of Faith suggests comes to mind, but I'm not knowledgeable about Arabic morphology...

Because "ياسين" is a name and possibly including group reference. Grammar prevents AL to be written together with the name but has to be written separately. If not, AL would naturally be written together with the word.

... like "آل عمران " ...

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصطَفىٰ ءادَمَ وَنوحًا وَءالَ إِبرٰهيمَ وَءالَ عِمرٰنَ عَلَى العٰلَمينَ
Thanks!  3:33 is an excellent example which helped me examine further and here are my findings using your example:
1) آل is tagged as an "accusative masculine noun" (corpus.quran.com)
2) آل is considered a separate word by corpus.quran.com, Omar (see above), tanzil.net, noorsoft.org and 2 other word-by-word translations (QIE & Alhuda) having root اهل (or اول) (per noorsoft.org)
Omar p. 36: اهل Family; Family member; House; Household; People belonging to a community or locality.

Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.
3) I find 153 instances of this word آل which are separated from the word it is referring to, AS A SEPARATE WORD, such as in good logic's 3:33 example:
3:33:6  وَءالَ
3:33:7 إِبرٰهيمَ

The SOLE exception I find in the Quran (hafs) versions which are written in a manner where each word is separately identified is 37:130.

In summary, as best as I can tell:
corpus.quran.com, Omar (see above), tanzil.net, noorsoft.org and 2 other word-by-word translations (QIE & Alhuda) consider all instances of آل   to be a separate word with the sole exception of the آل in 37:130, where it is written:
37:130:3  إل ياسين
instead of

  37:130:3   إل
  37:130:4   ياسين

and where noorsoft.org, a gold standard source (I believe) for Quranic roots, does not consider the إل in 37:130:3 as having a root like the other 153 instances in the Quran.

So far,
"ياسين" is a name
seems to have merit meaning that Omar (and the vast majority of the 50+ translations I've seen) are mistaken

I've seen one translation to support Man of Faith's supposition:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/37/130/default.htm
Aisha Bewley:    ?Peace be upon the family of Yasin!?

Even so, such a translation would regard إل ياسين  as two words and thus still doesn't explain why إل ياسين  is being treated as a single word by the sources I have cited...

huruf

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 08:22:16 AM »
Quote
    Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.

3) I find 153 instances of this word آل which are separated from the word it is referring to, AS A SEPARATE WORD, such as in good logic's 3:33 example:
3:33:6  وَءالَ
3:33:7 إِبرٰهيمَ

The SOLE exception I find in the Quran (hafs) versions which are written in a manner where each word is separately identified is 37:130.

In summary, as best as I can tell:
corpus.quran.com, Omar (see above), tanzil.net, noorsoft.org and 2 other word-by-word translations (QIE & Alhuda) consider all instances of آل   to be a separate word with the sole exception of the آل in 37:130, where it is written:
37:130:3  إل ياسين
instead of

  37:130:3   إل
  37:130:4   ياسين

and where noorsoft.org, a gold standard source (I believe) for Quranic roots, does not consider the إل in 37:130:3 as having a root like the other 153 instances in the Quran.'aal


You are mixing up two different roots. you equate 'ill with 'aal. They are two different words from two different roots.

'ill as it appears in ill yasin, and 'aal as it appear in 'aal 3imraan, for instance.

'ill is root '-l-l nd 'aal is root   '-w-l

Salaam

SAbboushi

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 10:03:19 AM »
... 'ill with 'aal. They are two different words from two different roots.

Thanks.  If I understand you correctly, 'ill and 'aal are the "two different roots" you are referring to?  And the "two different words" you are referring to are ill in ill yasin and 'aal in 'aal 3imraan?

'ill as it appears in ill yasin, and 'aal as it appear in 'aal 3imraan, for instance.

'ill is root '-l-l nd 'aal is root   '-w-l

I'm not familiar with the transliteration you are using. 
1) Can you tell me which arabic letters for these two roots?
2) Can you give me other relevant verses where this word/root ill/'ill are used?  You've suggested that we
Quote
Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.
, but I need to know the Arabic letters to do so.

Since you are of the position that إل ياسين are two words, then I suspect you would agree that these sources I have cited have all made a mistake when they treat it as a single word?

I is two words, 'ill yaasiin", 'ill means linneage, pact.
Can you show some evidence of that?

HP_TECH: are you asking for evidence that 'ill yaasiin" is 2 words, or that 'ill means linneage, pact?