Author Topic: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....  (Read 2065 times)

person_of_the_book

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I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« on: September 02, 2017, 04:12:03 AM »
Peace -

In my reading of Qur'an, I tend to take a more metaphorical or allegorical reading than a literal one - I am not saying one way is more or less correct, it's just my own nature to see things from that perspective.

Over the last couple of days I've been working through chapter 8 and 9 of the Qur'an, and while generally I do see the imagery of war as metaphorical for the inner battle, the language is often far too specific to have more than one meaning - and knowing the traditional interpretations of these passages, I wonder if the Qur'an is really recording something so specific, and how or why that is something that is in a book for all people at all times.

Perhaps I simply can't see the importance of these chapters because I am lucky, thank God, to have been born and raised in a society that has not been at war and remains mostly peaceful (we just take our wars elsewhere and ruin poor people's lives). I recognize that war has been, and is, a fact of existence for the entirety of human existence. So I am not so na?ve to think there is no reason to talk about war in the Qur'an......I just don't "get it".

I just can't wrap my head around it. How do you fine people read these chapters? Do you find them difficult?


(Side question: The Monotheist Group translation uses "communion" for salat (I also like "duty" in Gerrans), and yet the passage referring to "do not commune over those that set up partnership" is confusing to me.....what is the communion? How are Muslims to commune? I want to say that the word not being clearly defined seems to imply group custom or practices of the Muslims, whatever those may be, but this one specific instance of salat seems weird to me.)
"My comrade is my cat and my soul's companions are my books." - Ibn Faris

"Quand je me joue ? ma chatte, qui s?ait si elle passe son temps de moy plus que je ne fay d'elle?" - Michel de Montaigne

Makaveli

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 05:14:02 AM »
(Side question: The Monotheist Group translation uses "communion" for salat (I also like "duty" in Gerrans), and yet the passage referring to "do not commune over those that set up partnership" is confusing to me.....what is the communion? How are Muslims to commune? I want to say that the word not being clearly defined seems to imply group custom or practices of the Muslims, whatever those may be, but this one specific instance of salat seems weird to me.)

Can you refer to specific verses? I believe it warns about not to cooperate with paganists (those who set up partnership with God) when they are up to something bloody, i.e. stay away from wars and wordly life. Especially verses 9:80 - 9:90.

9:84 And do not commune over any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked. 9:85 And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken to death while they are rejecters

Who have died or stand at their grave is probably metaphorical, these are blind people who pursue wordly life ("do not be impressed by their wealth and their children").

So basically it makes sense not to commune with modern Muslims, or anyone else. Do not serve the Uncle Sam, do not serve the ISIS, do not serve the priests etc.
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Man of Faith

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 05:33:25 AM »
The sectarian interpretation of the chapters is implying on literal warfare.
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Comrox

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 07:52:31 AM »
(Side question: The Monotheist Group translation uses "communion" for salat (I also like "duty" in Gerrans), and yet the passage referring to "do not commune over those that set up partnership" is confusing to me.....what is the communion? How are Muslims to commune? I want to say that the word not being clearly defined seems to imply group custom or practices of the Muslims, whatever those may be, but this one specific instance of salat seems weird to me.)

I don't have much time so I'll try to respond to what else you said later, but for this take a look at: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608953.0
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

person_of_the_book

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2017, 02:03:34 PM »
The sectarian interpretation of the chapters is implying on literal warfare.

Well, yes. The claim is that the chapters refer to a specific battle and specific historical events with specific people. (While plausible, I also don't understand how this qualifies for inclusion in an eternal and universal book, or why God wouldn't name names and the like. This is why I am doing my hardest to wrap my head around these two chapters as general instructions/commands/advice to all mankind rather than a historical document.)
"My comrade is my cat and my soul's companions are my books." - Ibn Faris

"Quand je me joue ? ma chatte, qui s?ait si elle passe son temps de moy plus que je ne fay d'elle?" - Michel de Montaigne

person_of_the_book

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 02:04:45 PM »
Can you refer to specific verses? I believe it warns about not to cooperate with paganists (those who set up partnership with God) when they are up to something bloody, i.e. stay away from wars and wordly life. Especially verses 9:80 - 9:90.

9:84 And do not commune over any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked. 9:85 And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken to death while they are rejecters

Who have died or stand at their grave is probably metaphorical, these are blind people who pursue wordly life ("do not be impressed by their wealth and their children").

So basically it makes sense not to commune with modern Muslims, or anyone else. Do not serve the Uncle Sam, do not serve the ISIS, do not serve the priests etc.

An excellent point, thank you. That is helpful.
"My comrade is my cat and my soul's companions are my books." - Ibn Faris

"Quand je me joue ? ma chatte, qui s?ait si elle passe son temps de moy plus que je ne fay d'elle?" - Michel de Montaigne

reel

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 04:27:48 PM »
Quote
I just can't wrap my head around it. How do you fine people read these chapters? Do you find them difficult?

If to be muslim means making peace then the fight is with those who want to oppress it. List all the crimes disbelievers did according to Quran which led to such wars. See if you can agree that they did nothing wrong. You may also ask an American soldier what rule he has to abide by in the battlefield. They actually have protocols similar to what is in the Quran. You can kill only in defense.
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Wakas

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 04:05:19 AM »
Here is an interesting article on chapter 9, which may indirectly answer your question:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
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Makaveli

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 04:43:19 AM »
They actually have protocols similar to what is in the Quran. You can kill only in defense.


U.S. army kills in defense? Then the "best defense is a good offense" is I guess the best explanation of their tactics.   

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reel

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Re: I am having trouble with chapter 8 and 9....
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2017, 10:06:16 AM »

U.S. army kills in defense? Then the "best defense is a good offense" is I guess the best explanation of their tactics.

In the battle field yes! That's the protocol.
Can you trust army to be civilized? Nope. They are programmed to kill.
If one gets caught? Court marshaled or sentenced to jail.

PS: Battle style is no more the same. The terrorists use a tactic of splitting into small groups wearing normal clothes to camouflage themselves with the average people. It was made by some nazi who later worked for Mossad.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj