Homosexuality is NOT normal or right

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

My comments in red.

Yeah thats what people who reject ayahs about a town being destroyed because people committed crimes like homosexuality say.

To state that it doesn't matter what "that" word means is an emotional and non-logical statement. Of course it matters what is said, if it is to be taken as an example or as an instruction!


It is clearly cherry picking to take one part and ignore the rest. You claim that it doesn't matter to you what a word means, and it is that word that is key to understanding what Lot (peace upon all prophets) is talking about. I've presented evidences that the word CAN'T mean homosexual acts. You stick to the part about men approaching men.

No, you guys keep ignoring the part about men approaching men instead of women..cause you have no explanation what else it could mean.


My explanation is that the people were acting lustful and it is the lust and not the target of the lust that was the problem being addressed. It isn't acceptable for men to chase women lustfully, and neither is it acceptable for men to chase men lustfully. That it was men being approached is a minor detail.

Okay, so did Lot (peace upon all prophets) make a mistake, or is the Qur'an in error when it says that the people of Lot did something not seen before in any of the worlds? If neither of these are correct, please elaborate on how the MAIN ISSUE at hand is homosexuality. I feel sorry about the women and children among the people of Lot that had to die because they bore the burden of other people's homosexual acts. The position that the people of Lot were destroyed for homosexual acts is emotional and unsupported by either logic or reason. I don't claim that there were no homosexual acts, it seems obvious that there were. But to seize upon a detail and claim that it is the primary cause of woe is unfounded.


Quran isnt wrong and I never said homosexuality was the main reason the town was destroyed but it was one of the crimes committed. Cant deny that.


Lust was the crime--approaching others out of lust.

Marriage exists in the Qur'an, and the word used is not exclusive to the opposite gender. Computers don't exist in the Qur'an either, yet we are both typing on them. Modern medicine doesn't exist in the Qur'an either--do you likewise eschew that? Instructions exist in the Qur'an to not be oppressive to others, and to be just to others even if you dislike them, let me know how that works. For me, but not for thee? Doesn't exactly sound impartial or fair, does it?

Marriage between a man and a woman exists. There is only a list of females a man can marry.


So, the part about permitted is beyond this is to be ignored, because it doesn't fit your agenda?

Not supporting gay marriage isnt oppression. We're told to enjoin what is good and forbid evil.


<rhetorical question> Who is your partner that you have taken that has told you that same sex marriage is evil? If you don't like it, don't do it!  It is unjust to allow things for one person under the color of law or religion and deny them to another person. We are instructed to be just to ALL people, not just those that we like or agree with.

5:8 O you who believe, stand for God and be witnesses for justice, and let not the hatred towards a people make you avoid being just. Be just, for it is closer to righteousness, and be aware of God. God is expert over what you do.

ALLAH knows best.



~Abdul-Hadi

[Makaveli]

That is why (one of the reasons) Quran alone movements are so isolated from the rest of Islam and the opponents of Quran aloner's may employ such examples to criticize people following Quran only. And in such cases unfortunately they would be right. There are people that say if it does not explicitly prohibit anything, then it is perfectly all right, despite the fact that the concepts of lewdness and sexual purity are in fact explicitly described in the Quran and that is to stay away from lewdness [and repent if you did] and follow sexual purity (except with your spouses who cannot be of same sex) [23:1-11]. Not to mention all Abrahamic Scriptures including Tanakh prohibit sexual acts between men. Looking for examples in nature is like watching Mars rover as it has anything to do with our own society.

So according to their narrow logic since extasy is not a consumable mentioned in the Quran, why not take one, two, or two and half and go PARTAY!. Funny to see threads here like "sex before marriage is not prohibited prove me wrong" and this thread. I'd personally ignore such approaches.

[Amra94]

Greetings and Peace, all 

My comments in red.

ALLAH knows best.



~Abdul-Hadi

To you is your religion and to me is mine 

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

That is why (one of the reasons) Quran alone movements are so isolated from the rest of Islam and the opponents of Quran aloner's may employ such examples to criticize people following Quran only. And in such cases unfortunately they would be right. There are people that say if it does not explicitly prohibit anything, then it is perfectly all right, despite the fact that the concepts of lewdness and sexual purity are in fact explicitly described in the Quran and that is to stay away from lewdness [and repent if you did] and follow sexual purity (except with your spouses who cannot be of same sex) [23:1-11]. Not to mention all Abrahamic Scriptures including Tanakh prohibit sexual acts between men. Looking for examples in nature is like watching Mars rover as it has anything to do with our own society.

So according to their narrow logic since extasy is not a consumable mentioned in the Quran, why not take one, two, or two and half and go PARTAY!. Funny to see threads here like "sex before marriage is not prohibited prove me wrong" and this thread. I'd personally ignore such approaches.

Truth is not a popularity contest. It is better to be just in our dealings and truthful in our nature than to chase the phantoms of what others suppose to be the truth. If isolation from "mainstream" is a trial, then that is actually a blessing of sorts. 

When you look at older scriptures, in the very same Book that talks about homosexual acts being an abomination, it talks about shellfish being an abomination, classifies bats as birds, says that rabbits chew cud (they don't), and a host of other things. It is difficult to take it seriously, and AQ clarifies what is actually restricted. Judaism is the first known religion that prohibited homosexual acts. If one wants to practice Judaism instead of the deen, well...good luck with that! 

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

Leviticus 11 New International Version (NIV)

6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.

9 ??Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales?whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water?you are to regard as unclean. 11 And since you are to regard them as unclean, you must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean. 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be regarded as unclean by you.

13 ??These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,[a] the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

Leviticus 18 New International Version (NIV)

22 ??Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Regarding intoxicants, MDMA has some legitimate uses. Intoxicants are not prohibited, but we are warned that they are among the tools of Satan, and that we should avoid Satan if we are to be successful. The example of Paradise mentions rivers of intoxicants.

7:32 Say: "Who has made forbidden the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say: "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.

Water can be an intoxicant too...but that doesn't mean that water needs to be avoided/prohibited. It is the intoxication that we need to pay caution to, not the intoxicant. In the New Testament, Jesus (peace upon all prophets) turned water into wine.

John 2 New International Version (NIV)

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus? mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus? mother said to him, ?They have no more wine.?

4 ?Woman, why do you involve me?? Jesus replied. ?My hour has not yet come.?

5 His mother said to the servants, ?Do whatever he tells you.?

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

7 Jesus said to the servants, ?Fill the jars with water?; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, ?Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.?

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, ?Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.?

11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

Here is another example:

Deuteronomy 14:26 New International Version (NIV)

Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

What I'm saying is that basically you'll get confused if you mix Scriptures. Many things are allowed in the deen that are prohibited in Judaism (such as shellfish), and there are things that are allowed in Judaism that mainstream Muslims eschew (such as alcohol).

ALLAH knows best.



~Abdul-Hadi

[Makaveli]

Regarding intoxicants, MDMA has some legitimate uses. Intoxicants are not prohibited, but we are warned that they are among the tools of Satan, and that we should avoid Satan if we are to be successful. The example of Paradise mentions rivers of intoxicants.

Fantastic logic [not really]. Alcohol can be used in drugs for medical purposes, and that is there it can be of use. Wine mentioned in 47:15 does not share the same root as intoxicants in other verses. Saying something is of "legitimate use" when it is clearly called a sin [2:219] and that you shall stay away from it [5:90] gives you probably two options:

1) Stick to what you believe has some 'legitimate use' and consume it as much as you want while believing that you will [besides that] do all right as long as you don't go [further] astray. Get drunk to the level of a pig and then wish you did not commit any other prohibited stuff.

2) Only deal with alcohol or other intoxicans [such as opium as a painkiller] in extreme circumstances that require it, such as for medical purposes.

The same goes with homosexuality. You basically have to options here, either practice or not, and if you don't practice it, the options is to, well, either believe the context of purity in the Quran, or believe what suits your liberal agenda best. Quran is clear on protecting your private parts, except for spouses [23:5 - 23:6]. Legislation of marriage with a person of opposite gender is also crystal clear in the message.

I am done with this thread [108: 1-6]. A dude is either a troll [less likely] or someone who for no apparent reason is not a scientologist or someone of some other teletubby sect and is instead interested in the Quran [more likely, but probably temporarily].

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

Ima delve off topic here for a sec.

"Fantastic logic [not really]. Alcohol can be used in drugs for medical purposes, and that is there it can be of use. Wine mentioned in 47:15 does not share the same root as intoxicants in other verses. Saying something is of "legitimate use" when it is clearly called a sin [2:219] and that you shall stay away from it [5:90] gives you probably two options:"

Looks like the same root to me!

2:219 They ask you about l-khamri and gambling. Say: "In them is much sin, and a benefit for the people; but their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

5:90   O you who believe, l-khamru, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are made foul by the work of the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.

5:91   The devil only wants to cause strife between you through l-khamri  and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the Communion. Will you be deterred?

12:36 And with him in the prison entered two young men. One of them said: "I dreamt that I was pressing khamran," and the other said: "I dreamt that I was carrying bread on top of my head, and that the birds were eating from it." "Tell us its interpretation, for we see that you are of the good doers."

12:41 "My fellow inmates, one of you will be serving khamran for his lord, while the other will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. The matter which you have sought is now concluded."

24:31 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and maintain their chastity; and they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent. And they should put forth their bikhumurihinna over their cleavage, and they should not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those committed to by their oath, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And they should not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

47:15 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of khamrin that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

Same roots for these ayat too!

4:43 O you who believe, do not come near the Communion while you are sukārā , until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless a wayfarer, until you wash. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

15:15 They would have said: "Our sight has been sukkirat . No, we are a people being bewitched!"

15:72 By your life, they are in their sakratihim , blundering.

16:67 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make sakaran , as well as good provisions. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.

22:2   The moment you see it, every nursing mother will leave her suckling child, and every pregnant one will miscarry, and you will see the people sukārā while they are not bisukārā, but the retribution of God is most severe.

50:19 And the sakratu of death came with truth: "This is what you have been trying to avoid!"

The original point was that the both the Old Testament and the New Testament clearly allow alcohol. Appealing to an older scripture for support in one thing (homosexual acts are sinful) while denying it in other things (alcohol, shellfish, glaring scientific fallacies) is base hypocrisy. I hate it when ~other~ people are hypocrites! 

In any case, if alcohol and intoxicants and intoxication are really a topic of interest, we can resurrect one of the old threads or start another new thread to discuss it.

ALLAH knows best.



~Abdul-Hadi

[Comrox]

If we agree that the scriptures disapprove romantic/sexual relationship within the same gender, then the Lord would never cause any man to be born with gay alignment and thus, being gay is definitely a choice.In that case, homosexuals may benefit from psychotherapy session, there doesn't have to be brain surgery.

Talk to any person who is openly gay and ask them if being gay is a choice.

Therapy does not help. Conversion camps don't work. It only traumatizes a person further. Why would someone choose to be gay if they're going to be persecuted, disowned, or harmed (physically/mentally/emotionally) by their family, friends, peers, religious leaders, greater community, etc.?

Peace All.
The norm is you are either born a boy or a girl?
The exceptions  are people born with both "sexes" or... But these are rare.

Some want to define their way of life and sexuality.
May be some will want to be a boy on Mondays,a girl on Tuesdays and a neutral on Wednesdays... Anyway, it is getting complicated.

Biology and gender are considered different terms. Gender is more about what you feel. But I agree, it's getting complicated, too complicated for me to keep up sometimes. I don't understand people if they decide their gender is different on different days, although I've never met anyone like this and I don't believe the majority of transgenders are like this at all.

This is not a problem for us or those who mind their own business and are happy as a boy or girl or... We carry on minding our own business and seeing good people as good people when they are good with us ...We should be good with everyone who is upright and peaceful.
God is the judge of all His subjects..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

100% agree with this. At the end of the day, people are people.

[Man of Faith]

Homosexuality is not a psychological disorder so you cannot use that as a method. You can probably not "cure" homosexuality because it is deeply rooted in the brain functionality and who the person is, and if you would be able to cure it then you could also cure criminal behavior or fix just about anything of anomalous behavior in people. Doubt anyone can cause that kind of "correction" in a body.

Furthermore, homosexuality IS A NATURAL PHENOMENON and people who are attracted homosexually are natural.

And according to your own reasoning you would trespass on your Quran's order: "Do not change the creation of God/Allah". If you try to surgically alter the homosexual persons you violate that command since they are created that way.

Think about your own reasoning people lest you may be hypocrites.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel

[Makaveli]

Furthermore, homosexuality IS A NATURAL PHENOMENON and people who are attracted homosexually are natural.

I would not spell natural in caps because only 0.5% (Idk the actual statistics but the number is extremely low compared to bisexual people or homosexual who acquire this in their youth, for instance, but who before were heterosexual) of homosexual people are born homosexual, the rest 'acquire' perversion during their life. Things that may contribute to the 'development' are watching specific dirty material or living in all-male environment. The group of people which is actually born this way are the true sufferers, because they cannot help but their orientation is 'broken'. One of the reasons I've heard is because a woman drinks or get's high during specific term of pregnancy, when brain is developed in the unborn.

And the Quran says But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty [24:33]. By means that may not necessarily be material wealth, in many parts of the world people marry while their living standards are considered to be beyond the poverty line compared to the Western states (Afgan, India etc.). Means can also symbolize physical inability, or living in the environment where there are no chaste [4:25] or chaste and believing women [5:5] or in the all-male environment, or being homosexual.

[Man of Faith]

It is not like every other person is openly homosexual in our communities either. If it is 0.5% of animals this is still a great number of individuals if we say it is 0.5% of a human population.

And if we go back to the natural phenomena, the animals are not alcoholics or something and yet a steady portion of animals display homosexual tendencies. And those who have had dogs may have seen a female dog display male sexual intercourse positions, so gender identity is not something firm and animals thus may have male reflex movements while they are a female body. That was just one example of many.

If then a human with their complicated soul mechanism has similar to an animal a loose sense of gender identity then this provides an explanation to the phenomenon in man, i.e. IT IS A NATURAL PHENOMENON. Obviously, a human can control their everyday more than an animal, but the gender identity is still relatively loose, by nature. A non-homosexual person performing homosexual actions is therefore belonging to a group of people merely following the instinct of man's body which is yet loosely defined by nature.

But if we go back to the human psyche, a hefty amount of the total population of Earth are in fact homosexual by birth, they are born with that alignment, be it anomalous or not, and you cannot do a thing about that fact except persecuting them or killing them for the mere fact they are homosexual, but you can never eradicate them since new ones will always pop up as it is a naturally occurring phenomenon.

And it is more of a sin for you to persecute them than to let them be in peace, but here people are suggesting all from psychoanalysis to brain surgery, which is horrible, all because of your ignorance of the design of this world which you do not reflect upon sufficiently.

People on this forum claim to distance themselves from narrow-minded sectarianism, but support dim-witted arguments of what homosexuality is yet while ignoring it is perfectly natural.

And a man who does not turn on by a male from birth will never become a true homosexual, this is a preconceived idea you are having about the gay community. The gay community will not transform heterosexual individuals into homosexuals.

The female sexuality seems more complicated and it appears the gender identity is very loosely attached to the person and females tend to be occasionally homosexual. This is still a natural phenomenon and seen in other species. The specimen is still not of another sex and may reproduce as according to design.

However, it is possible the above is true for men too, but it is too burdened by unemotional silence to be open to study. I have no material to suggest men can also occasionally be homosexual due to instinctive calls.

Yet again looking at the animal world, human activities involving homosexuality is PERFECTLY NATURAL.

This means by no way that I support deeds involving instinctive responses nor that I think one should live out on their innate homosexuality. If I was innately homosexual I would live my life as a celibate to avoid vanity which is equal to sin. However, I defend innocent instinctive beasts on Earth who are too weak to understand their ventures are bad for them and I do not tolerate hostility towards animals for being natural.

Yet I doubt any of you would kill an animal for displaying homosexual moves. Perhaps you would laugh. But truth is also an instinctive human is like an animal, the soul is weak and needs to get stronger. By hurting them they will not grow stronger.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel