Stoning the three pillars during Haj|

[357]

Okay provide the links if you will
Regards

Here you are;


http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

37:103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..


The test or trial- read the following Ayah.

2:49
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered (what ever zibah means) your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

Abraham and his Son refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37:103) ? so Abraham passes the test but then ransomed by God with educational 30 years in the tyrants own palace.

The original quran was clearing up the falsehood - I believe.


Good Hunting.......

[good logic]

Thanks for your links and clarification. I have already came across these before from elsewhere.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[357]

Thanks for your links and clarification. I have already came across these before from elsewhere.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

you are Welcome.

Another place  i found Mr shah rukh khan - an indian actor in his movie "my name is khan"

He plays a role as a guy with Asperger's syndrome

well any way he goes to read his salli in a masjid and sees a group of guys discussing islam and joins them

the imam starts telling Abraham sacrifice  , to encourage them to perform terrorism "see how abraham slaughtered his son for God"
Khan gets up and starts shouting "lier,lier, lier"
The imam asks politely well if God didn't order him who did ?

Khan replies "shaitan,shaitan,shaitan" and runs out of the mosque.

[Wakas]

Bring forth your eye openers.
For I am of the understanding that my forefather feared His Lord thus much.

Did you read my link prior?

Further discussed here onwards:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.msg2241#msg2241

[HP_TECH]

Did you read my link prior?

Further discussed here onwards:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.msg2241#msg2241

Peace Wakas,


Thank you I hadn't noticed it. Interesting perspectives from you and Joseph Islam.
I agree with your last post that it seems to me from Ibrahim thus being rewarded as a good doer and the conviction of both of them to follow through with what they were convinced it was from God that it was probably from God.
The fulfillment of the vision was the submission and intent of Ibrahim to carry out the sacrifice.
I know you were making a claim for sacrifice alluding to giving someone up, but no one could provide supporting evidence for such.
I simply humbly read the passage literally and don't beat myself up over the details.
Is it so hard to believe that God thus tested Ibrahim?

I seek refuge in Allah lest I say about His Majesty that which I do not know.

[357]

I recommend:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13069.msg273059#msg273059

Can you show where and how he is sacrificed in the quran? according to your explanation on the meaning of sacrifice? (although i do agree with you).....Thanks.

Remember they are never spoken of together again and ismael is very young also

[Wakas]

peace,

I know you were making a claim for sacrifice alluding to giving someone up, but no one could provide supporting evidence for such.

My view is that it could mean "sacrifice" in its first usage in the verses (when Abraham relays the dream to his son) because when other visions are mentioned in Quran the words/objects used are often not taken literally (12:5, 12:100, 12:43) i.e. they are symbolic/mean something else.

Thus, this only leaves the 2nd usage of "sacrifice" (in 37:107) to explain away. It could be a play on words as I have noted elsewhere in Quran, but I personally haven't checked every Classical Arabic dictionary to see if this word has ever been used non-literally. We do it in English all the time however.

The objection in the above paragraph is the only sticking point for my view, everything else is favourably weighted towards my understanding (in my opinion). Thus, in terms of balance of probability I take the view as mentioned in the links I gave.

Can you show where and how he is sacrificed in the quran? according to your explanation on the meaning of sacrifice? (although i do agree with you).....Thanks.

Remember they are never spoken of together again and ismael is very young also

Exactly. Quran also confirms there is a separation: "...settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 14:37.

To be frank, my view is a perfect fit except for what I mentioned previously.

[357]

peace,

My view is that it could mean "sacrifice" in its first usage in the verses (when Abraham relays the dream to his son) because when other visions are mentioned in Quran the words/objects used are often not taken literally (12:5, 12:100, 12:43) i.e. they are symbolic/mean something else.

Thus, this only leaves the 2nd usage of "sacrifice" (in 37:107) to explain away. It could be a play on words as I have noted elsewhere in Quran, but I personally haven't checked every Classical Arabic dictionary to see if this word has ever been used non-literally. We do it in English all the time however.

The objection in the above paragraph is the only sticking point for my view, everything else is favourably weighted towards my understanding (in my opinion). Thus, in terms of balance of probability I take the view as mentioned in the links I gave.

Exactly. Quran also confirms there is a separation: "...settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 14:37.

To be frank, my view is a perfect fit except for what I mentioned previously.

If that was the case , then there is no great feat by ismail......

May be I am wrong, can/ is
Ismail = Moses, as there isn't any name for Moses in childhood in the quran, is there?

The sacrifice made was the giving up of their child, so it was never a physical slaughter as such.
May be pharaoh took away their children to work as slaves leaving behind their women.


Etymology of the name Ishmael

The name Ishmael consists of two elements. The first part comes from the verb שמע (shama'), meaning to hear:

Abarim Publications' online Biblical Hebrew Dictionary

שמע
The root-verb שמע (shama') means to hear in much the same way as our English verb. It may mean to perceive a sound via the ears (Genesis 3:10, Deuteronomy 4:33), or to hear about something via the grapevine (1 Samuel 13:4, Isaiah 66:. It may denote an observant listening, a paying attention to (Amos 4:1, Micah 3:9), or understanding someone's language (Genesis 11:7). It may mean to hear someone out (Genesis 23:6), or hear someone in a judicial setting (Deuteronomy 1:17). Our verb also often means to listen to someone in the sense of to obey that person (Judges 2:20, 1 Samuel 8:7), or to hear and forgive or help (1 Kings 8:30, Isaiah 30:19).


I to denote who hears
Shama to hear
i?l the one who is heard

Ismail
(One) who hears Allah.

ﭮ ﭯ ﭰ ﭱ ﭲ ﭳ ﭴ ﭵ ﭶ ﭷ ﭸﭹ ﭺ ﭻ ﭼ ﭽ
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.
(30. So when he reached it, he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place, from the tree: ?O Musa! Verily, I am Allah, the Lord of all that exists!?)



Or is it too far fetched?

[357]

Ismail=Moses did away with their laws and set up the laws again for mankind........ cleansed Albait and reestablished it anew.

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000400.pdf

I was looking at this ayah to make a point but need some input - from anybody ......

The word mathabatan 2.125 is always translated as a place for return, but looking at lanes

...Al-Bait  mathabatan for mankind.......Al-Bait is for recompensing , compensating, requital or reward - for good and for evil - for mankind.........

Is that right , might be?   

Doesn't it sound like The Law?

Hope people agree or disagree 

[HP_TECH]

peace,

My view is that it could mean "sacrifice" in its first usage in the verses (when Abraham relays the dream to his son) because when other visions are mentioned in Quran the words/objects used are often not taken literally (12:5, 12:100, 12:43) i.e. they are symbolic/mean something else.

Thus, this only leaves the 2nd usage of "sacrifice" (in 37:107) to explain away. It could be a play on words as I have noted elsewhere in Quran, but I personally haven't checked every Classical Arabic dictionary to see if this word has ever been used non-literally. We do it in English all the time however.

The objection in the above paragraph is the only sticking point for my view, everything else is favourably weighted towards my understanding (in my opinion). Thus, in terms of balance of probability I take the view as mentioned in the links I gave.

Exactly. Quran also confirms there is a separation: "...settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 14:37.

To be frank, my view is a perfect fit except for what I mentioned previously.

I don't truly think your view is truly a perfect fit or can be considered acceptable because:
1. As you stated you need to verify that it's non-literal meaning has comparable usage in Classical Arabic
2. Most importantly you cannot reconstruct Arabic grammar in 37:103, which clearly describes both of them submitting and pay attention here, IBRAHIM watallahu liljabini; PUT HIM DOWN ON HIS FOREHEAD. Next verse Allah decrees to Ibrahim that he has fulfilled the vision.

The vision was clearly the sacrifice of his son, that's why they both submitted and then Ibrahim him put him on his forehead. There is no other coherent meaning to be extrapolated from these verses.
Simple and clear.
It would require some state of the art acrobatics to dismiss this evidence