Author Topic: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir  (Read 6871 times)

reel

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Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« on: June 29, 2017, 01:34:40 PM »
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

imrankhawaja

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 03:30:22 PM »
i just start reading that book..

sounds interesting i beleive i will carry on studying..

thanx for share

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 11:11:38 PM »
Just in case someone wants to study this:

https://www.slideshare.net/kingabid/symmetric-book-noble-quran

peace, the above is only flipping verse counts which early scribes used as a checksum to keep count/prevent errors and likewise for easy reference which ~100 years after revelation (or more still investigating) different checksum system/verse counts were used.

see topic: verse numbering early manuscripts
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609944.msg411582;topicseen#msg411582

reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 08:13:01 PM »
peace, the above is only flipping verse counts which early scribes used as a checksum to keep count/prevent errors and likewise for easy reference which ~100 years after revelation (or more still investigating) different checksum system/verse counts were used.

see topic: verse numbering early manuscripts
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609944.msg411582;topicseen#msg411582

Did you get to find any old Quran that has all the chapters? I certainly do not find your explanation convincing because one needs a huge huge amount of time to do that complicated arrangement.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 06:58:27 AM »
Did you get to find any old Quran that has all the chapters? I certainly do not find your explanation convincing because one needs a huge huge amount of time to do that complicated arrangement.

peace, there are enough old manuscripts to reconstruct and if for the first few hundred years manuscripts consistently didn't count initials as separate verses then have to question when was current arrangement adapted?

likewise not complicated numerous combinations have similar symmetry e.g. add/remove any even # of verses in below 57 chapters

1 7
2 286
4 176
9 129
11 123
13 43
14 52
15 99
16 128
17 111
18 110
22 78
24 64
25 77
27 93
28 88
29 69
30 60
32 30
33 73
34 54
35 45
38 88
39 75
43 89
45 37
56 96
57 29
58 22
63 11
64 18
66 12
68 52
70 44
72 28
74 56
78 40
80 42
81 29
87 19
88 26
90 20
91 15
93 11
94 8
97 5
98 8
101 11
102 8
103 3
105 5
106 4
107 7
111 5
112 4
113 5
114 6

e.g. delete any 2 verses from ch 9 like 128-129 present in early manuscripts

http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/129/handschrift/878

ch vrs ch+v 57 even 57 odd
1 7 8 
...
9 127 136
...
114 6 120
 
6555 6234 12789 6234 6555

60 even # verses 54 odd # verses
30 even-even 30 odd-even 27 odd-odd 27 even-odd

reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 06:18:24 AM »
peace, there are enough old manuscripts to reconstruct and if for the first few hundred years manuscripts consistently didn't count initials as separate verses then have to question when was current arrangement adapted?

 

That's what I was expecting. But are you using reference from multiple manuscripts (Quran books) or one? I wouldn't use anything which has bits and pieces.

Quote
likewise not complicated numerous combinations have similar symmetry e.g. add/remove any even # of verses in below 57 chapters
The structure is complicated in the sense that even after the arrangements they fit the context in the chapters.
I haven't found a single mullah who has idea about the structure. As we know, they use their secondary sources to analyze the preservation. But if each Quran despite having verses arranged differently show symmetry independently then I suppose we know who is actually protecting it. You have provided a great clue.

"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 11:52:14 AM »
That's what I was expecting. But are you using reference from multiple manuscripts (Quran books) or one? I wouldn't use anything which has bits and pieces.

peace, what does it matter if text matches back then and today?





The structure is complicated in the sense that even after the arrangements they fit the context in the chapters.
...
But if each Quran despite having verses arranged differently show symmetry independently then I suppose we know who is actually protecting it. You have provided a great clue.

It's not complex and similar symmetry happens with numerous combinations e.g. ch 9 only 3 verses, or 5, or 7, or 9, ... or 127, or 129, or 131, or 133, etc. to infinity and likewise the same with 56 other chapters. Looking at earliest manuscripts it's evident current verse counts were implemented a few hundred years after revelation or perhaps even a thousand years! Not sure if understood or looked into it; early manuscripts which match today's text had different verse counts not all symmetrical e.g. initials chapter 42:1-3 counted as a single verse...

42:1 حم ha meem 42:2 عسق ayn seen qaf 42:3 كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise








Mist

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 10:53:38 PM »
<<<

15:09   Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

So Noon, preserved eh?

Looking at earliest manuscripts it's evident current verse counts were implemented a few hundred years after revelation or perhaps even a thousand years!

41:42   No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.

Noon, your manuscripts are not pure, have some respect towards our Creator. If numerology is what drives you, then you're indeed lost.

reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 12:38:21 AM »
peace, what does it matter if text matches back then and today?

What Mist showed:
<<<

15:09   Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.




It's not complex and similar symmetry happens with numerous combinations e.g. ch 9 only 3 verses, or 5, or 7, or 9, ... or 127, or 129, or 131, or 133, etc. to infinity and likewise the same with 56 other chapters. Looking at earliest manuscripts it's evident current verse counts were implemented a few hundred years after revelation or perhaps even a thousand years!

Not sure if understood or looked into it; early manuscripts which match today's text had different verse counts not all symmetrical e.g. initials chapter 42:1-3 counted as a single verse...

Something far less complicated has thousands of books dedicated to it and that's called debit and credit system. The field is accounting. I don't think you will understand the value of the structure if you do not experience what it is to like do accounting in a ledger.

But where are the books talking about the symmetry of Quran? Why no mullah knows about this structure and why do they depend on hadiths to know about the preservation? It doesn't matter when the verse counts were implemented. What matters is whether each early book showed the symmetry or not. No number next to verses? Count the lines then and compare them. But for that you'll need the fully intact Quran from the ancient time.

Then again, is it worth the time since memorization of Quran is a piece of cake? I haven't forgotten the chapters taught to me orally at age 5. I recite them still in the same way. Long gaps don't erase them from the memory. The history of the book sounds quite unrealistic when we consider the memorization thing.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 10:02:20 AM »

So Noon, preserved eh?

If numerology is what drives you, then you're indeed lost.

no cannot stand numerologists or trolls pretending to be believers.

likewise in context obviously the word 15:24 المستقدمىن the ones prior









What Mist showed:

But where are the books talking about the symmetry of Quran?

peace, you've not looked into it "symmetry" is simpleton numerology with numerous combinations.

Mist

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2017, 12:10:10 AM »

Noon, what is this liquid stain?



Text fading, and liquid stains.



Text fading, and liquid stains.

36:82   His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it: "Be,' and it is.
36:83   Therefore, praise be to the One in whose Hand is the sovereignty of all things, and to Him you will be returned.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 09:47:18 AM »
Noon, what is this liquid stain?

I can read neither does it trouble and suffices me.

2:2 ذلك such الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it هدى guidance للمتقىن for the righteous


reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2017, 03:25:14 AM »
no cannot stand numerologists or trolls pretending to be believers.



I don't think Mist is a troll.



Quote
likewise in context obviously the word 15:24 المستقدمىن the ones prior



peace, you've not looked into it "symmetry" is simpleton numerology with numerous combinations.


That would make accounting numerology also.

PS: What if the old manuscript actually had the wrong word, but the  Book we have showed the correct one? Do we go back to changing the correct to that wrong word? The ultimate answer to understanding the words lies in practical tests and the fact that God is merciful.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2017, 03:22:55 PM »
That would make accounting numerology also.

No perhaps "cooked accounting" or fudging books committing fraud.

PS: What if the old manuscript actually had the wrong word, but the  Book we have showed the correct one? Do we go back to changing the correct to that wrong word? The ultimate answer to understanding the words lies in practical tests and the fact that God is merciful.

Please show example of word wrong in old manuscript and correct in new?

It?s actually other way around the old books can be used to confirm new e.g.

Partial taping on kalala in one early muṣḥaf: https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/kalala/

View above here: http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/176?handschrift=170

Likewise the word الكلله confirmed in another manuscript:



Peace!

IsaMuslim

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2018, 07:25:51 AM »
Salaam alaykum,

Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
It is for Us to gather (jam'a) and relate it.
So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
(75:16-18)

Jiim-Miim-Ayn
To collect or gather, bring together, to contract, assemble or congregate, unite or connect or form a connection, bring into a state of union, reconcile or conciliate, put on a thing [such as clothing article], to compose/arrange/settle, to pray in congregation, determine/resolve/decide upon a thing, agree or unite in opinion, prepare or make a thing ready, dry up a thing, conspire or league with another, coexist with one, to be compact/compressed/contracted, exert one's energy, to compromise or comprehend or contain, enter or go into, to meet or be in company with another.

The Birmingham Manuscript was carbon dated, between 568AD and 645AD, from lifetime of prophet Mohammed to a decade after his death.
This manuscript contains pieces of surat al-Kahf, surah Maryam (19) and surah Ta-Ha; it has verse and chaper separators, in fact before the carbon-dating it was thought to be of 8th or 9th century.
http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/Islamic_Arabic_1572a/table/
Is he who is based on proof from his Lord, as he for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?
~ 47:14 ~

reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 03:31:42 PM »
No perhaps "cooked accounting" or fudging books committing fraud.

Sides must be matched in order to validate the calculation.

Quote
Please show example of word wrong in old manuscript and correct in new?

I don't follow the manuscript. I don't study it.


Quote
It?s actually other way around the old books can be used to confirm new e.g.

Partial taping on kalala in one early muṣḥaf: https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/kalala/

View above here: http://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/176?handschrift=170



Peace!

I can't see anything the taping does. The author also says:

Quote
The purpose of this tape is unclear; one possibility related to me recently is that it may have been applied to strengthen the pages at points where overly-acidic ink had eaten through the page.[3]


Quote
Likewise the word الكلله confirmed in another manuscript:


Isn't it like hadiths are evaluated in the same way? Well, they have a tafseer book attributed to Ibne Abbas. it surprisingly covers all of Quran with stuffs added here and there. One look at the thing will tell any sane human that it was a distorted Quran they wanted to circulate. I would mainly rely on tests.

Peace
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 08:05:29 AM »
Sides must be matched in order to validate the calculation.

I don't follow the manuscript. I don't study it.


Isn't it like hadiths are evaluated in the same way? Well, they have a tafseer book attributed to Ibne Abbas. it surprisingly covers all of Quran with stuffs added here and there. One look at the thing will tell any sane human that it was a distorted Quran they wanted to circulate. I would mainly rely on tests.

Peace --

1. not as symmetrical/balanced rather all numerology "selective" what author includes/excludes.

2. likewise billions of combinations exist remove verses due to hadith get meaningless multiples.

ch33 71 verses
Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. [That verse was]: 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

ch9 127 verses
Zayd also said:
"So I started looking for the Holy quran and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, until I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 478).




3. earliest manuscripts didn't count initials and had different verse counts e.g. ch 20 with 140 verses!

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/12/handschrift/281



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/12/handschrift/107



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/12?handschrift=163



reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2018, 04:47:17 PM »
Peace --

1. not as symmetrical/balanced rather all numerology "selective" what author includes/excludes.

2. likewise billions of combinations exist remove verses due to hadith get meaningless multiples.

ch33 71 verses
Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. [That verse was]: 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]



I am not understanding this post. Are you saying that this hadith is a proof that the arrangement is corrupt?

"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2018, 07:45:50 PM »
I am not understanding this post. Are you saying that this hadith is a proof that the arrangement is corrupt?

Peace, no again there are countless combinations gets similar symmetry (try playing with below sheet).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13BdUScwu16S5jTUorkqqw3dnJBZahr8jp5b9URFCI8s/edit?usp=sharing

ch9 127 verses i.e. remove two verses due to infatuation with counting delete Allah

Zayd also said:
"So I started looking for the Holy quran and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, until I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 478).


ch33 71 verses i.e. remove two verses due to infatuation with counting delete Allah

Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. [That verse was]: 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

New arrangement seems to appear ~200 years afterwards a few initialed verses were separated out.

e.g. 42:1-3 was a single verse ?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1/handschrift/163

42:1-3 حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise


The Sardar

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2018, 09:20:24 PM »
I don't know brother Noon. The hadiths are based on hearsay so i wouldn't be surprised if the claim that a verse was removed or added was a lie.
Apologies if i have missed something or misunderstood your point.

reel

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2018, 07:34:12 AM »
Peace, no again there are countless combinations gets similar symmetry (try playing with below sheet).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13BdUScwu16S5jTUorkqqw3dnJBZahr8jp5b9URFCI8s/edit?usp=sharing

ch9 127 verses i.e. remove two verses due to infatuation with counting delete Allah

Zayd also said:
"So I started looking for the Holy quran and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, until I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 478).


ch33 71 verses i.e. remove two verses due to infatuation with counting delete Allah

Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. [That verse was]: 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

New arrangement seems to appear ~200 years afterwards a few initialed verses were separated out.

e.g. 42:1-3 was a single verse ?



I am not sure what you mean by "remove two verses due to infatuation with counting delete Allah"

The whole job of  symmetry is to make sure verses don't go out of Quran. It is also not important whether the numbers were added later. Even without them, counting of the lines should show symmetry. But we don't have access to full Quran from the ancient time. So we can't check. If the ancient people discovered the symmetry at the time of adding the numbers it would have been available at least in one source. But we found none.

Secondly, I wouldn't use hadiths to know about the preservation of Quran. Enough has been said about even atheists spreading rumors about Quran corruption back in time which then turned into hadiths of the persians. In that also, a major blooper exists. Quran can't be known as kitab if people were going around writing its verses on a wide variety of stuffs. In fact, that would mean Allah treating Arabs as less equal to previous people whom he gave actual kitab like Torah and Injeel. Nowhere in the Quran Allah says Musa's people wrote torrah here and there on a wide variety of things.

Third, it is easy to memorize the Quran. It would be weird for sahabas to make those above claims.

And the numbering is actually no big deal. Quran contains laws. For easy reference, it makes sense that they added the numbers. Humans still do it:

Quote
CIVIL CODE - CIV
DIVISION 1. PERSONS [38 - 86]  ( Heading of Division 1 amended by Stats. 1988, Ch. 160, Sec. 12. )

PART 2. PERSONAL RIGHTS [43 - 53.7]  ( Part 2 enacted 1872. )

43.  Besides the personal rights mentioned or recognized in the Government Code, every person has, subject to the qualifications and restrictions provided by law, the right of protection from bodily restraint or harm, from personal insult, from defamation, and from injury to his personal relations.
(Amended by Stats. 1953, Ch. 604.)
Full view: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=CIV&division=1.&title=&part=2.&chapter=&article=
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: Symmetric Book Noble Quran by Prof. Ayedmir
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2018, 08:52:09 AM »
peace reel, the whole point was that verse numbers were used by scribes as checksum nothing miraculous about symmetry  and hadith were used by those infatuated to delete verses etc.