Author Topic: Adultery with slaves?  (Read 6654 times)

huruf

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2017, 06:20:22 AM »


Huruf, what about 'servant' ?


What? What do you mean?

Salaam

Cerberus

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2017, 07:23:35 AM »
GL,
I really don't feel like getting involved in this thread, I just want to point out that the quranist take on that expression wasn't well explained here. A lot of non sense and garbage posts directed towards OP too.

Also, as Wakas hinted, OP may or may not be a troll, but it doesn't mean anything because the general public has every reason to think of that word as 'slave' since it is the common understanding of it by sectarians. And if anyone want to correct him then they should do so. Of course, they need to be logical and as clear as possible.

Huruf, I simply asked if 'what your right hand possess'* could refer to 'servants' instead of 'slaves', since as you pointed out, riqab is closer to slave than 'ma malakat....' could possibly be.

(*: the literal classical arabic translation of that expression.)

huruf

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2017, 09:44:29 AM »

Huruf, I simply asked if 'what your right hand possess'* could refer to 'servants' instead of 'slaves', since as you pointed out, riqab is closer to slave than 'ma malakat....' could possibly be.

(*: the literal classical arabic translation of that expression.)

A thourough examination of all the occurrences of the words in the Qur'an does nto tell me tht it is servants but rather what I said, dependants, such as we understand them today. Also bear in mind the words themselves, what the right hand possesses is nto a person but a relationship with that person which is marked by the right hand. The right hnd in the Qur'an and in normal speech in many languages is the good hand, the benefical hand, tht which is done is the right hand is for good, not for selfish purposes but for generous purposes. You have a benefical relationship with those who are with you in it. Check yourself in the Qur'an itself and verify.

Of course, a mamalakar ay... may act as a serant, but as to the term it would be beside the point.

There are other terms for servants in Qur'an, like 3bd and others which I can't recall now.

Salaam


good logic

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2017, 10:52:03 AM »
Peace Cerberus.
Thank you for your frank reply.
Let me give you and the readers here my take on "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" according to my understanding of Qoran so far.

I found the general meaning to be "What is rightfully and legally yours",however there are exceptions and different contexts to consider in certain verses.

For example a husband and wife have that legal contract that gives each of them rights to one another. Two lovers that find themselves fugitives from society can also have that right,a woman that leaves/flees/run away from husband because of clashed loyalties of GOD v others and vice versa and each is free to marry even without a divorce ...etc
Also there is polygamy to add to this mix. GOD has not outlawed/prohibited polygamy for social and orphans reasons. Whether we like it or not,polygamy exists even today.
Qoran always added" do not brake up existing marriages" ,however Qoran strongly advices that a man must give his full attention and loyalty in marriage to his wife and children in order to raise a happy and wholesome family.
 The Qoran also emphasizes the limitations against polygamy in very strong words:"If you fear lest you may not be perfectly equitable in treating more than one wife, then you shall be content with one." (4:3) "You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter how hard you try." (4:129)
But Qoran is crystal clear that adultery is prohibited. Sex outside marriage/contract is not allowed with anyone including slaves.
There is no contradiction or abrogation between the verses. Adultery is forbidden,full stop.

GOD ,in Qoran uses different words deliberately according to all possibilities,some we are not even aware of.His words never contradict each other,hence we must question our interpretation of those words.
I am confident that GOD,while aware of all the traditions and social ways of the past and future generations,has never said "you can have sex with your slaves" .
Bring on the verses those who disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Aries

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2017, 11:33:01 AM »
@Aries 33:52 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.

"except those to whom you are committed by oaths" those aren't people?

Peace,

Not necessary at all. It can mean something like "except what encompasses/ involves your oath"

Are oaths only about women or people in general?  :o what about the Hippocratic oath, graduation pledges, ethical principles, oaths of chastity, oaths of office?

What if that part of the verse, in the last analysis, means that the addressed prophet here just does not need to get married if he does not want to?  :hmm





Wilson

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2017, 01:28:47 PM »
Peace Ju5,

https://free-minds.org/rules-engagement

Hope this helps.

Wakas

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2017, 02:06:35 PM »
@Ju5

You defined what you mean by "slave" but it does not seem to be supported by Quran's usage of MMA. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't but you never provided any evidence. If I am mistaken, please provide the verses which prove MMA=bonded slaves.

If you are interested in a reasonable discussion of this matter, see from this post onwards:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.msg253237#msg253237


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

reel

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2017, 06:53:39 PM »
@Aries 33:52 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.

"except those to whom you are committed by oaths" those aren t people?

@Wakas   1- 4:25 And as for those of you who, owing to cir?cumstances, are not in a position29 to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.30 And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other.31 Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.32 And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable.33 This [permission to marry slave-girls applies] to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil.34 But it is for your own good to persevere in patience [and to abstain from such marriages]: and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.    (asad translation, your favorite according to a post of yours)

it is written "slave"
now what slave means :  noun 1 .a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave)


now if they are indeed slaves or not doesnt even matter to me

the prophet s wives had ones (33:55)

sex seems to be allowed with them (23:5-6)

the punishment of adultery for them is half the one of free women (but is the punishment of men half of the free men? since the prophets wives had ones (33:55) they must have been men

you CAN marry them, or NOT, but 23:5 doesnt make the difference



@Reel why would God state than the prophet can marry doctors?



going to edit earlier post, its 23:5-6 not 23:50


Good question, is there is a list in the Quran of professionals whom we can and can't marry?
Peace Cerberus.
Thank you for your frank reply.
Let me give you and the readers here my take on "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" according to my understanding of Qoran so far.

I found the general meaning to be "What is rightfully and legally yours",however there are exceptions and different contexts to consider in certain verses.

For example a husband and wife have that legal contract that gives each of them rights to one another. Two lovers
I see that the lovers along with friends of two diff gender also fall in the category of right hand posses.


"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Comrox

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2017, 08:29:14 PM »
There's an old article on the topic here: https://www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/quranic/malakat.htm
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

amin

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Re: Adultery with slaves?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2017, 11:25:14 PM »
4/24 there I get,

That we cannot SEEK other married woman for marriage except those married but were in our control now for various reasons(war captives, or refugees, nomads who lost path etc), those who for various reasons take shelter or under the care of those men. ....

Accept it or not we need ourselves go back to those ages to get the real idea of what it means.