Author Topic: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?  (Read 2232 times)

Nonetheless

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3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« on: June 03, 2017, 02:30:09 AM »
From Dr. Kahsif Khan,

BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? HAS BEEN UNLAWFULLY REPLACED WITH ?مكَّةَ? IN TRANSLATIONS OF THE VERSE 3:96 TO PROTECT THE CENTRE OF PAGANISM, ITS IDOLS & RITUALS.

Dr. Kashif translate 3:96  as

  • ?إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ? - 3:96
    Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa lilnnasi lallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameena

    as
    That first charter/plan/scheme devised/compiled for people to enjoy with compassionate justice, of blessing and guidance for all situations
    (word to word correct translation of the verse 3:96 of Surah Al Imran)
     i.e.

    1. That first charter compiled for people to have benefit with compassionate justice, of blessing and guidance for all situations
    or
    2. That first plan devised for people to enjoy with compassionate justice, of blessing and guidance for all situations
    or
    3. That first scheme devised for people to have benefit with compassionate justice, of blessing and guidance for all situations

His justifications at;
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/bakkah-%D8%A8%D9%83%D8%A9-has-been-unlawfully-replaced-%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A9-verse-396-dr-kashif-khan?trk=mp-reader-card

Pickthall's translation:
  • 3:96 Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples;

I believe Dr. Kashif's intention is to do away with the Kaaba which to him is an 'idol' to the Ahadith mongers.

Do you agree with Dr. Kashif's interpretation?
if not, why?


imrankhawaja

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2017, 07:49:48 AM »
makkah and bakka both are mention in quran

if it replaced then its mean there is not a gurantee of any other words too ?
this guy is dangerous i already advise people to carefully read.. everything as per 17 36

but as a matter of HISTORY the dots and vocal marks and numbering added latter in the text..
if you go with that approach again makkah cannot become bakka , MEEM dnt need any dot .. on the other hand BA need..

lets put it on test .. either you can put 1 dot under that word to make it "bakka" or 2 dots to make it "yakka" , makka is not a possibilty hence there is not any chance of error in the writting of makka and bakka.. (while the process of dotting)

peace


Mazhar

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2017, 11:35:25 AM »
Controversy about Becca and Mecca

 

It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and Iesma'eile [alai'his'slaam] is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one. They opine that it was a different House by referring to the use of Proper Noun Becca, in Qur'aan, which seems to them a site located somewhere in the blessed plains of the holy lands possibly near or at the location where subsequent temples were built and maintained by "Hebrew Prophets".

Grand Qur'aan explicitly explains every fact and its text is par excellence in self-referencing. Both these Proper Nouns are mentioned once, in different contexts; they are neither synonyms nor interchangeable; one is the Town described by masculine gender while the other, referring the City Mecca, is described by feminine gender. I find it very interesting that on whatever point the people were to erroneously conjecture stories with reference to some element of the text of Qur'aan, it is explained equally in detail as an advance rebuttal of such conjectural gossips.


The House of Allah the Exalted was built in the Town then named Becca, now part of city Mecca.

We are informed:

Contd:
Controversy about Becca and Mecca 

Wakas

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2017, 03:31:41 PM »
From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Quote
3:96 Indeed, the first1 house/shelter placed/set-down2 for mankind was the one with/in/by/at bakka3 blessed and a guidance for the beings.
3:97 In it clear signs/evidences, the stance/position/status4 of Abraham, and whoever entered it was securing. And for God upon mankind (is) the HaJJ (at/of) the house/shelter, whoever is able to make a way to5 it, and whoever conceals/rejects then truly God has no need of the beings.

1 first means others are possible, also see 24:36. This would explain well the narration interplay between Abraham's example and the believers this time around, indicating that Abraham's model is an example for them to follow. This is perhaps linked to his status as an imam/model/exemplar for mankind [2:124].
2 Arabic: "wudi'Aa" often translated incorrectly as "set-up" or the like.
3 this could be a proper name of a place, however it could mean "distinguishing/ranking above others", "crowding" or some other CAD meaning for Ba-Kaf-Kaf. Interestingly, "crowding" is a common meaning to both BaKKah and MaKKah, thus could explain how they became interchanged in future Traditional Islamic sources. I personally think "makkah" means "crowding" in 48:24.
4 Arabic: "maqam" does not commonly mean physical standing place, see other occurrences.
5 Arabic: "ila" implies motion and/or direction.

Note the object of it (Arabic: hi/hu) can only be "bayt/shelter", however most traditional translators try to explain this away as referring to "the haram/sanctuary of Makkah" e.g. Ibn Kathir. This peculiar issue will be discussed later.

If the "bayt" mentioned in 3:96 is the cuboid called Kaabah in Makkah, then this has some issues:
1) a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7:159, 7:181, 21:73)
2) according to traditional Islamic history the cuboid called Kaabah has been demolished and rebuilt several times - if so, does its status as a "guidance" and "securing" become temporarily suspended at these times?
3) what are the clear signs in the cuboid called Kaabah? Is there even any? It is very rare for people to enter it today.
4) I am not aware of any non-Islamic source that states Abraham was in the area of Makkah, nor any prophet/messenger thereafter.
5) in present day Makkah, the alleged "maqam Ibrahim" (stone imprint of Abraham's footsteps) is outside the cuboid called Kaabah, not inside it like the verses say.
6) I am not aware of any source which cites a place called Makkah or a cuboid called Kaabah prior to traditional Islamic sources.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Nonetheless

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2017, 12:46:20 AM »
Peace to all,

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

If the "bayt" mentioned in 3:96 is the cuboid called Kaabah in Makkah, then this has some issues:
1) a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7:159, 7:181, 21:73)

If we approach 3:96 by asking which is the critical root derivative, it would appear HDY [huda -guidance] and its related derivative is very critical and central to the Quran as a whole. The 'guidance' [HDY] itself culminate as the Quran, i.e. the revelation from Allah.

If this is the direction where Dr. Kashif's view could make some sense.

Quote
When you look up inside a tent what you see right upwards is called ?بَيْت? in Arabic, i.e. ceiling of a tent is actually a ?بَيْت? but poles that hold up the tent's ceiling do not come under the definition of ?بَيْت?. Therefore, a ?canopy? is an appropriate example of ?بَيْت? which is functionally similar to the ceiling of a traditional tent.

The purpose of having a canopy or ceiling over our heads is to provide us a shade and to keep us safe and secure, which is called a scheme of protection ?امان? in Arabic literature.

Quran uses the same word ?امان? and provides Allah?s security, a literal synonym of ?بَيْت?, to those who come under Allah?s canopy or Allah?s ?بَيْت? but Allah spreads His canopy or ?بَيْت? through His words, which contain Allah?s ?charter? revealed in His Books.

Therefore, Allah?s ?بَيْت? has nothing to do with any worldly building construction material or any contemporary material of manufacturing a canopy or a ceiling erected on the poles of a traditional tent.

Hence, Quranic word ?بَيْت? is the Charter, Scheme, Plan and a virtual canopy, or a virtual platform of Allah,
which is not Allah?s house made of stones in Makkah, called Kaaba nor do Arabs call ?بَيْت? to their house.

Arabic word ?منزل? has been used to mean ?HOUSE? throughout the Arab words since pre Islam Arab civilization. If Arabs don?t use the word ?بَيْت? for their own houses why do Muslim scholars use ?بَيْت? to mean house in the translations of the Quran and how can they interpret ?بیت اللہ? to mean Allah?s house?

The simplest answer of this discrepancy is because of a conspiracy where they wrongly translate the Quranic word ?بَيْت? to sabotage the actual message of the Quran and to bring in the Islam the forbidden pagan worship of stone gods of the black cuboid of Kaaba, which is itself a statue of pagans? deity Al-Laat a female deity of cuboid shape square stone having a visible female organ in it.
Why they call this idol cuboid the house of Allah because no one will ever dare to break it or go against it.
Therefore, this Quranic word ?بَيْت? has been distorted and misleadingly translated to protect the cuboid idol Al Alaat and its worship in the name of Allah and Allah?s house.

If the Quranic word ?بَيْت? can lead to the Charter, Scheme, Plan and a virtual canopy, or a virtual platform of Allah, this will lead to Allah's message, i.e. revelation.
Note the term 'architectonic'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectonics
thus the architectonic of Allah represent the whole structure of Allah's message and revelation.

I have always consider the weightages of the respective elements in the Quran in respect of the whole of the Quran and Allah's purpose for humanity.
Allah in the Quran do not give very heavy priority to Hajj and the Kaaba [direction - merely to differentiate Muslims from others].

However HDY and its root derivatives in the Quran has a very high weightage in the eyes of Allah based its usage and representation in the Quran.

If we associate بَيْت towards a house [physical structure] in Mecca, this lead to a possibility of idolizing an existing cuboid.

But if we tilt بَيْت towards architectonic [literary doctrinal structure] with association to the the message, revelation, then the term 'guidance' in 3:96 will make sense taking into account the whole context. Even at the worst if one is wrong in interpretation there is no great risk as this is positive to the heavier weighted 'huda' [HDY].

The above are merely views, I am not insisting on them and thus opening them up for discussion.




Iyyaka

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2019, 02:13:21 PM »
Salam,

Wakas made a good remark in his article :http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html with the reference to Bakka as "crowding". It is close to my translation of this hapax in the quran.
Next, concerning Dr. Kahsif Khan's article, imrankhawaja has already answered for me.

My view :
the Quranic term bakka can not be taken as a place name, but grammatically as a complement.
Indeed, as Tabari pointed out, the word bakkah / بكة derives in this case from the Arabic root bakka meaning to be tight, gathered in a crowd, and the term bakka means: gathering. Also, the construction of "la-ladh? bi-bakka" referring to the dwelling place/ bayt is understood grammatically and without difficulty as meaning "that of the gathering", hence our translation: "In truth, the first house which was instituted for the people is that of the gathering/ bakka".

Furthermore, the reference to hajj is obvious in the textual context.

When we analyse together ayat 3:96 and the root word from Bakka (Ba - Kaf - T) probably God gave us a sign..
Ba = House... / [3:96] = Bayt "House"
Kaf = existence, living.. / [3:96] = Mubarakan "rich in blessing"
T = sign of productivity, utility, beneficial / [3:96] = Hudan "Guidance"

Just a remark in terms of Quranic Rhetoric :  The ayat [3:96] is placed in the Center of surah 3 (X). It is in symetry with the Center (X) from surah 2 and the surah 2 is a Zawj with surah 3.
And the Center of surah 2 as surah 3 talks mainly about Hajj set up in a place by Abraham and Ismael.
But it is too long here to develop this subject.

Peace


Mazhar

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2019, 08:31:18 AM »
Quote
My view :
the Quranic term bakka can not be taken as a place name, but grammatically as a complement.

How you thought it is a "term"?

Iyyaka

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 10:49:08 AM »
How you thought it is a "term"?
Salam,
Sorry but what do u mean by "a term" ?
Peace

Mazhar

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2019, 11:30:53 AM »
Salam,
Sorry but what do u mean by "a term" ?
Peace

What is the difference between a word and a term? A word is usually defined as a complete meaningful element of a language. All terms are words, but not all words are terms. A term is a particular definition of a word, which is applicable to a special situation. Terms occur only in the process of communication. They occur when the writer tries to avoid ambiguity and a reader follow his use of words.

Iyyaka

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Re: 3:96 BAKKAH ?بَكَّةَ? is not Mecca?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2019, 02:13:15 PM »
What is the difference between a word and a term? A word is usually defined as a complete meaningful element of a language. All terms are words, but not all words are terms. A term is a particular definition of a word, which is applicable to a special situation. Terms occur only in the process of communication. They occur when the writer tries to avoid ambiguity and a reader follow his use of words.
Thanks for this explanation but i don't realize what i can add at my answer. Sorry..