Author Topic: Why do you need four witnesses, and why is the punishment less for males in.....  (Read 4602 times)

hawk99

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Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks

Peace Ervin, what is your opinion?
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

reel

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Quote
Now, why three or four witnesses is not enough, Why four?

The biggest question: who takes multiple people to bedroom?

Anyways, its is not 4 exactly. There is another one there:

And the fifth that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars.24:7

That's what caught me. Just human witnesses will not be enough.
They must also say yes to 24:7. Trust me, that catches even the atheists by the collar. People cannot get away by  tarnishing someone's name when the instructions from Quran are followed.

Next:
 The fornicator does not marry except a fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.24:3

Why people here are to marry  fornicator or polytheist and not the believer?

"in the homes until death terminates their lives" is not a punishment.

Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks
You won't go very far with Quran alone if you go by what other humans say. The Book is a guidance. So first you really should use it individually. It is common to make new discoveries about the verses. That makes previous articles and understandings invalid for future use.

"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Ervin

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Peace, hi, thanks

Hawk, it doesn't make sense to me. But the lot of the Quran is so beautiful and unique. Now, because of that fact, I am entertaining a thought that it's all true.

Thanks
My real name is also Ervin

huruf

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4.15-16 are not about zina and are not about punishment, and are not, at least not particularly about same sex practices.

4.15 if we set ourselves int he real world fits what prostitues do. They have been and still are overwhelmely women. The aya speaks in the femine plural and and the verb is in the uncompleted tense, which means that it si something ongoing or done regularly. Again that fits protitutes. Adn neither this aya nor the follwoing  sets any punishment. There is no imprisonment but an order to the communoity to take these women off the street and put them into houses (not prison nor imprisonment) till they find another means to make a living or till they die if they do not find another way to earn a living. Prostitutes very often have children and in fact many of them become prostitutes when they get pregnant and the family disowns them or get into similarly vulnerable circumstances.

4.16 tells people to remind those who engage a prostitute and the prostitute that what they do is nto right and they should not pursue what they are doing.

With good sense, first comes the injonction in 4.15, ordering to take care of the prostitutes, and then the injunction to annoy the prostitue an the client so that they do nto pursue that kind of trade.

In any other situations which fits, the injunctions could be applied, but the case of prostitution is very obvious.

As to the four witnesses are required b ecause finally it is to be done regardless of the opposition of those concerned and therefore there should be clear proof that the procedure is warranted by facts.

The wrong interpretations stems, as is so common, from estimating that the injunctions of the Qur'an are addressed to males and not to the community, which obviously is a wrong assumption, the addressee is the people. The women meant are the women of the people, not anybody spouse in particular. That is the women are any women, just as the couple mentionned in 4.16 is made up of any of the people.


Salaam

progressive1993

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When you stop denying that this passage, like most in the Quran, is addressed to men, things will become easier to understand. There are many distorted translations out there. 4:15 talks about female fornicators. According to a current hypothesis I have, these females become 'fatayatikum min ma malakat aymanakum.' 4:16 talks about male homosexuals. Men, the workers and providers/protectors of women DO NOT get house arrest for fornication and only get punished on earth if it results in cuckolding (zina) - i.e. they fornicate with a married woman. Women are not the providers and protectors of men, nor are they in charge of household finances. They should ideally be with their family or marry a good man. Why 4 witnesses for punishment of females? To prevent slander and punishing innocent women.

Please note that 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.'

Quite interesting that today's corrupted world goes against these teachings completely. Yet so many here want God's message to conform to current insane and unhealthy standards.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Noon waalqalami

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And according to 4:16, the punishment for males is way less, than for females. Why?

peace

1:7 صرط path الذىن alladhīna/the ones (masculine plural; refers to "any individuals" males/females) انعمت favors thou علىهم upon them غىر other than المغضوب the ones earned wrath علىهم upon them ولا and not الضالىن the astray

2:1-4 الم alif lam meem ذلك such الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it هدى guidance للمتقىن for the righteous الذىن alladhina/the ones (masculine pl. "any individuals" males/females) ىومنون believing بالغىب in the unseen وىقىمون and keeping الصلوه the connection ومما and from what رزقنهم provision we them ىنفقون spending والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones (masculine pl. "any individuals" males/females) ىومنون believing بما in what انزل descends الىك to you وما and what انزل descends من from قبلك before you وبالاخره and in the afterlife هم themselves ىوقنون assured being

4:16 واللذن wa-alladhani/and the two (masculine dual; i.e. refers to "any two individuals")

46:17 والذى wa-alladhī/and the one (masculine singular; refers to "any individual" male/female) قال said لولدىه to parents his (i.e. aforementioned person) اف uff!


huruf

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progressive1993

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When you stop denying that this passage, like most in the Quran, is addressed to men, things will become easier to understand. There are many distorted translations out there. 4:15 talks about female fornicators. According to a current hypothesis I have, these females become 'fatayatikum min ma malakat aymanakum.' 4:16 talks about male homosexuals. Men, the workers and providers/protectors of women DO NOT get house arrest for fornication and only get punished on earth if it results in cuckolding (zina) - i.e. they fornicate with a married woman. Women are not the providers and protectors of men, nor are they in charge of household finances. They should ideally be with their family or marry a good man. Why 4 witnesses for punishment of females? To prevent slander and punishing innocent women.

Please note that 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.'

Quite interesting that today's corrupted world goes against these teachings completely. Yet so many here want God's message to conform to current insane and unhealthy standards.

It seems I have to emphasize again:

 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.

The "alatee" and "aladhani" arguments are secondary and those things are complementary. It is clear that many translators have ignored the phrasing and corrupted the translation.

Focus on "among your women" and "among you." It does not say "among your women" and "among your men" or something like that.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Novice

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It seems I have to emphasize again:

 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.

The "alatee" and "aladhani" arguments are secondary and those things are complementary. It is clear that many translators have ignored the phrasing and corrupted the translation.

Focus on "among your women" and "among you." It does not say "among your women" and "among your men" or something like that.

What I understood from my Arabic learning, Alladhani may be used to refer to a group of two people - either "a man and a woman" or "two men".

progressive1993

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Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks

Adultery? Do not fall into the trap of conflating different terms. Most translators do this. 4:15-4:16 does not talk about adultery. Fahisha, in my opinion, is a general term for sexual immorality or fornication that does not involve cuckolding.

Zina means cuckolding, which is when a wife cheats on her husband.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."