Author Topic: Why do you need four witnesses, and why is the punishment less for males in.....  (Read 4609 times)

Ervin

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Peace,

In the following:

And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
4:16   And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

Now, why three or four witnesses is not enough, Why four?

And according to 4:16, the punishment for males is way less, than for females. Why?

I am not saying it's wrong what's written in the Quran, I am just trying to understand it.

Thanks
My real name is also Ervin

Abdul-Hadi

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Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Practically, four witnesses is a way of telling people to mind their own business when it comes to what happens between consenting adults.

Which "they" are being confined--those who bear witness, or those who are being accused?  :hmm Incidentally, why is/are the confined to be in "houses" plural?

It seems that 4:15 is referring to spouses/wives--not just any woman who happens to follow the deen. Contrast nisāikum in 4:15 with nisāikum in 4:23 or 65:4.

Although the word "two" in 4:16 is masculine, the other uses of the root word do not only apply to men--a strong indication that the "two" applies to both men and women.
 
A more truthful translation is "And the two who..." instead of "And the two men who..."

Properly translated, the two ayat could actually be referring to bearing false witness--after all, it is possible to correct/reform/amend bearing false witness, is it not?

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.  :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

huruf

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4.15 is in the plural and there is no punishment. Amsikuhum fil buyut does not say imprison them, but shelter them in the houses, keep them safe in the houses. It looks very much like it is speaking about prostitutes who do the street. And do not throw them out till God opens for them a way to get a living, and if the do not find another way of getting a living keep men in the houses till they die. Keep them not imprison them.

Salaam

RECKLESSgoat

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My personal view* on this:
*(Before reading, keep in mind that the interpretation below is my own understanding of the verses and that I could have made multiple mistakes in linguistics, context, translation, deduction, etc.)

The verses 4:15-16 are talking about a single crime/'lewd act' that multiple people are involved in, these two verses are to be linked together so they can be properly understood.

4:15 "And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way/path."
4:16 "And the two[males] who "yaatiyaanihaa" from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful."

The word "yaatiyaanihaa" (root ̛ālif-tā̛-yā̛) could either be referring to the lewdness, which would make the lenient punishment for the males extremely unfair, or it could be referring to the females, as in the males "approaching the female sexually", the word has been used to refer to sexual acts/approach multiple times in the quran. (2:222-223)(7:81)(26:165)(27:55)

Therefore, it is not wrong to translate verses 4:15-16 in the following way:

4:15 "And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way/path."
4:16 "And the two[males] who are [guilty of]approaching her (i.e. having sex with her) from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful."

A few things to note:

1. The verses are referring to married females because verse 4:15 says "nisaaa'ikum"/"your women" and only three verses prior to that(4:12) god was talking about 'wives'/'spouses', the males on the other hand aren't married because the verse 4:16 only says "two men from among you", the female being married is the reason why the punishment is more lenient for the males as the female in question is also guilty of adultery.

2. The requirement of four witnesses to the act from amongst the people highly implies that the act was public.

3. When verse 4:15 says "or God makes for them a way/path", I believe that it is safe to deduce that the way out/path that god makes for them is through his guidance which would lead to their repentance and reform, therefore if the female repents and reforms she should be freed from her imprisonment, verse 4:16 further confirms this when it says that the way/path out of the punishment for the males is to repent and reform --> "If they repent and reform, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.", if that is the way/path out of the punishment that god prescribed for the males then the way/path out of the punishment for the females is the same unless stated otherwise. Disagree with this deduction? If so then what else could "god makes for them a 'way/path'" mean? an unlocked window? an unlocked door? a hole in the ground/roof/walls? sleeping prison guards? The way/path of guidance is the only "way/path" that makes sense as it ultimately leads to repentance and reform, god also mentions in multiple parts of the quran that whomever truly repents and reforms should be forgiven from the crime they committed. :)

4. The mention of more than one man in verse 4:16 --->"allathani"/"the two(males)" implies that it was an act of...ahem...umm...group copulation


In conclusion:

The verses 4:15-16 are to be linked as they are both talking about a single crime/'act of lewdness' and prescribing punishments for those who are involved.

4:15-16 "And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way/path(through repentance and reform). And the two[males] who are [guilty of]approaching her (i.e. having sex with her) from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful."

The crime/lewdness: A married female engaging in public sexual relations with multiple males.
The punishment(female): Imprisonment for life or until god makes a path for her(path of guidance ---> repentance and reform).
The punishment(males):  To be troubled until they repent and reform.
Reason for differing punishments: The female is married therefore she is also guilty of adultery, the males are not.


Once again, this is my own personal view, it could include many errors.

God knows best,
Peace!


Abdul-Hadi

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Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Adultery is clearly addressed elsewhere. If 4:15 is about adultery, then why would the adulterer have multiple punishments (100 lashes AND confinement)?  :hmm

24:2   The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

24:3   The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.

24:4   And those who accuse the emancipated females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.

24:5   Except those who repent after this and do good, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.


There are several links between 4:15-16 and the above; four witnesses are mentioned, repentance and reform are mentioned. Surah 24 is a "clear revelation."

Side question: Is an unmarried person who has sex with a married person also an adulterer? Legal definitions on this vary...

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

huruf

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You have quoted the ayas for adultery. We all know them by now by heart and it is not aultery, it is zina.

In 415 there is no punishmet. Punishment cannot be elastic, from 0 menuts to parpetual. It is absurd and there is nomention of any flogging. No mention of zin and it is only for women when in fact in sura An-nur God makes it very sure, unfalsifiably sure that the punishment would be exactly the same for male and female?

It is preposterous. Matters in 4.15 and sixteen are fahisha. Zina may be a variety of fahisha, but fahisha is not a synonime for zina.

In 4.15 and 16 we are dealing with social behaviour no with criminal matters.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

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strange type of sins exist ...

killing somebody make you sad
rapping somebody make you sad
robbing somebody make you sad
hurting someone emotions make you sad..

doing adultury give you pleasure
doing zina give you pleasure
doing fahish acts ( like oral sex , homosex) gives u pleasure
doing prositution gives you pleasure
watching pornography gives u pleasure

playing gambling gives you pleasure and sadness both in case of winning and losing :rotfl:

smoking weed drinking alcohal
gives you pleasure and sadness both depend on situations

cheating with somebody gives you pleasure (both in relation and in daily life.. like transactions..)

some sins are easy to feel like disrespecting your parents & grandparents will make you feel bad
respecting them make you feel good...


and the most hardcore sin "shirk" gives you nothing niether pleasure nor sadness.. how strange ?

so by defualt most of the dangerous sin is shirk in which you dnt have any feelings or you dnt know what you feel example with pleasure lot of people are doing shirk including the last two prominent generation of beleivers ..

jesus and muhammad followers...

what i dnt understand is why there is not any guilty feeling or pleasure feeling  of doing shirk like other sins , even this is master sin

perhaps this is also hidden like other matters whatever related with the creator


ALittleBitOfEverything

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Salaam.

My understanding was that these verses refer to punishment for homosexuality (for both men & women). I know Yusuf Ali says so in his footnotes but he acknowledges that it's not a commonly held view. It makes sense to me though. The fact that there needs to be 4 witnesses means that the punishment happens only in extremely rare scenarios (because there are verses that ask people to enter other people's houses only with permission). So unless they're "doing it" in a pubic space I cannot imagine many scenarios where people are caught and punished for homosexuality.

Also the fact that there is only one punishment mentioned here would indicate that the punishment is the same for both men and women (that they be held in their houses till they repent or God makes a way for them). I confess I cannot think of what "the way" might be in a real life situation :)

God knows best. Please do point out if there are mistakes in my understanding above.



huruf

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But where is the punishment. There is no talk about punishment. And again a punishment for a fault or misdemeanor or whatever bannot go from 0 minutes to perpetual. It is ridiculous and where is the hint that this refers to homosexuality? Nowhere it is hinted.

An when it is said about women in plural, what is this fahisha that is spacially womanly, homosexuality or whoredom? Also, there is no mention whatsoever of repentance in 4.1. And it is not a particular act, it is th fact of doing it repeatedly or usually since action of the verb is uncompleted, that is they are at it continually, not that they do it once and you go and punish that once. Although, as I say, there is not talk whatsoever of punishment. And amsikuhum fil buyut is no a punishment, it is an act of social solidarity to pick people from the street and put them into houses.

Salaam

Ervin

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Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks
My real name is also Ervin

hawk99

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Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks

Peace Ervin, what is your opinion?
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

reel

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Quote
Now, why three or four witnesses is not enough, Why four?

The biggest question: who takes multiple people to bedroom?

Anyways, its is not 4 exactly. There is another one there:

And the fifth that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars.24:7

That's what caught me. Just human witnesses will not be enough.
They must also say yes to 24:7. Trust me, that catches even the atheists by the collar. People cannot get away by  tarnishing someone's name when the instructions from Quran are followed.

Next:
 The fornicator does not marry except a fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.24:3

Why people here are to marry  fornicator or polytheist and not the believer?

"in the homes until death terminates their lives" is not a punishment.

Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks
You won't go very far with Quran alone if you go by what other humans say. The Book is a guidance. So first you really should use it individually. It is common to make new discoveries about the verses. That makes previous articles and understandings invalid for future use.

"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Ervin

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Peace, hi, thanks

Hawk, it doesn't make sense to me. But the lot of the Quran is so beautiful and unique. Now, because of that fact, I am entertaining a thought that it's all true.

Thanks
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huruf

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4.15-16 are not about zina and are not about punishment, and are not, at least not particularly about same sex practices.

4.15 if we set ourselves int he real world fits what prostitues do. They have been and still are overwhelmely women. The aya speaks in the femine plural and and the verb is in the uncompleted tense, which means that it si something ongoing or done regularly. Again that fits protitutes. Adn neither this aya nor the follwoing  sets any punishment. There is no imprisonment but an order to the communoity to take these women off the street and put them into houses (not prison nor imprisonment) till they find another means to make a living or till they die if they do not find another way to earn a living. Prostitutes very often have children and in fact many of them become prostitutes when they get pregnant and the family disowns them or get into similarly vulnerable circumstances.

4.16 tells people to remind those who engage a prostitute and the prostitute that what they do is nto right and they should not pursue what they are doing.

With good sense, first comes the injonction in 4.15, ordering to take care of the prostitutes, and then the injunction to annoy the prostitue an the client so that they do nto pursue that kind of trade.

In any other situations which fits, the injunctions could be applied, but the case of prostitution is very obvious.

As to the four witnesses are required b ecause finally it is to be done regardless of the opposition of those concerned and therefore there should be clear proof that the procedure is warranted by facts.

The wrong interpretations stems, as is so common, from estimating that the injunctions of the Qur'an are addressed to males and not to the community, which obviously is a wrong assumption, the addressee is the people. The women meant are the women of the people, not anybody spouse in particular. That is the women are any women, just as the couple mentionned in 4.16 is made up of any of the people.


Salaam

progressive1993

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When you stop denying that this passage, like most in the Quran, is addressed to men, things will become easier to understand. There are many distorted translations out there. 4:15 talks about female fornicators. According to a current hypothesis I have, these females become 'fatayatikum min ma malakat aymanakum.' 4:16 talks about male homosexuals. Men, the workers and providers/protectors of women DO NOT get house arrest for fornication and only get punished on earth if it results in cuckolding (zina) - i.e. they fornicate with a married woman. Women are not the providers and protectors of men, nor are they in charge of household finances. They should ideally be with their family or marry a good man. Why 4 witnesses for punishment of females? To prevent slander and punishing innocent women.

Please note that 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.'

Quite interesting that today's corrupted world goes against these teachings completely. Yet so many here want God's message to conform to current insane and unhealthy standards.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Noon waalqalami

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And according to 4:16, the punishment for males is way less, than for females. Why?

peace

1:7 صرط path الذىن alladhīna/the ones (masculine plural; refers to "any individuals" males/females) انعمت favors thou علىهم upon them غىر other than المغضوب the ones earned wrath علىهم upon them ولا and not الضالىن the astray

2:1-4 الم alif lam meem ذلك such الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it هدى guidance للمتقىن for the righteous الذىن alladhina/the ones (masculine pl. "any individuals" males/females) ىومنون believing بالغىب in the unseen وىقىمون and keeping الصلوه the connection ومما and from what رزقنهم provision we them ىنفقون spending والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones (masculine pl. "any individuals" males/females) ىومنون believing بما in what انزل descends الىك to you وما and what انزل descends من from قبلك before you وبالاخره and in the afterlife هم themselves ىوقنون assured being

4:16 واللذن wa-alladhani/and the two (masculine dual; i.e. refers to "any two individuals")

46:17 والذى wa-alladhī/and the one (masculine singular; refers to "any individual" male/female) قال said لولدىه to parents his (i.e. aforementioned person) اف uff!


huruf

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progressive1993

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When you stop denying that this passage, like most in the Quran, is addressed to men, things will become easier to understand. There are many distorted translations out there. 4:15 talks about female fornicators. According to a current hypothesis I have, these females become 'fatayatikum min ma malakat aymanakum.' 4:16 talks about male homosexuals. Men, the workers and providers/protectors of women DO NOT get house arrest for fornication and only get punished on earth if it results in cuckolding (zina) - i.e. they fornicate with a married woman. Women are not the providers and protectors of men, nor are they in charge of household finances. They should ideally be with their family or marry a good man. Why 4 witnesses for punishment of females? To prevent slander and punishing innocent women.

Please note that 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.'

Quite interesting that today's corrupted world goes against these teachings completely. Yet so many here want God's message to conform to current insane and unhealthy standards.

It seems I have to emphasize again:

 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.

The "alatee" and "aladhani" arguments are secondary and those things are complementary. It is clear that many translators have ignored the phrasing and corrupted the translation.

Focus on "among your women" and "among you." It does not say "among your women" and "among your men" or something like that.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Novice

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It seems I have to emphasize again:

 4:15 says 'those (feminine plural) among YOUR women' and 4:16 says 'those (masculine dual) among YOU.

The "alatee" and "aladhani" arguments are secondary and those things are complementary. It is clear that many translators have ignored the phrasing and corrupted the translation.

Focus on "among your women" and "among you." It does not say "among your women" and "among your men" or something like that.

What I understood from my Arabic learning, Alladhani may be used to refer to a group of two people - either "a man and a woman" or "two men".

progressive1993

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Peace everyone,

I find this and one other article of God alone Islam hard to accept.

Anyway, I am interested in others opinions on the adultery and four witnesses.

Thanks

Adultery? Do not fall into the trap of conflating different terms. Most translators do this. 4:15-4:16 does not talk about adultery. Fahisha, in my opinion, is a general term for sexual immorality or fornication that does not involve cuckolding.

Zina means cuckolding, which is when a wife cheats on her husband.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Ervin

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Peace everyone.

I still haven?t worked it out, but God willing I will. I have seen in one of the mainstream copies of the Quran where in the brackets next to where it says ? Or if God finds a way out for them?, it says ?by new legislation?.  I am interested in your thoughts on what I am proposing.

Thanks

My real name is also Ervin

huruf

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What are you taling about?

Salaam

imrankhawaja

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Peace everyone.

I still haven?t worked it out, but God willing I will. I have seen in one of the mainstream copies of the Quran where in the brackets next to where it says ? Or if God finds a way out for them?, it says ?by new legislation?.  I am interested in your thoughts on what I am proposing.

Thanks

Peace brother,

if the bold part is in brackets then you really dnt need to worry about it. because you can put anything of your choice in it.
Why a God will find a way for them ? God already knows everything ..  ;)

Blessing of God upon you

huruf

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4.15 is in the plural and there is no punishment. Amsikuhum fil buyut does not say imprison them, but shelter them in the houses, keep them safe in the houses. It looks very much like it is speaking about prostitutes who do the street. And do not throw them out till God opens for them a way to get a living, and if the do not find another way of getting a living keep them in the houses till they die. Keep them not imprison them.

Salaam


Amsikuhunna does not mean confine or incarcerate, never. Check every occurrence int he Qur'an. It never has that meaning, but it always has a helpful meaning.

On the other hand, what kind of punishment for the same "crime" is that that goes from 0 to perpetual imprisonment? It is preposterous.

The way out is that they find a way of earning their life like an employment or a marriage or somebody to help them to not need to prostitute.

Why is it that when something concerns women know-alls always find a way to twist it so that it crushes women instead of helping them.



Salaam