Arabic Text Quran

[Noon waalqalami]

Rather explain why it cannot mean what I said, that what they are ment to kill, once they repent is the self (nafs) that is bent to wrong or evil.

Peace, if taken literally is asking them to commit mass suicide e.g. jumping collectively off high cliff?

2:54 واذ and when قال said موسى Moses لقومه to folk his ىقوم O folk انكم indeed you ظلمتم wrong you انفسكم souls yours/yourselves باتخاذكم in taking you العجل the calf فتوبوا so turn/repent ye of الى to بارىكم creator yours (i.e. by doing the following) فاقتلوا fa-uq'tulū/so slays ye of  انفسكم souls yours  ذلكم such yours خىر better لكم for you عند near/with بارىكم creator yours فتاب so turn علىكم upon you انه indeed he هو he التواب the frequent الرحىم the merciful

17:31 ولا and not تقتلوا taqtulū/thou slay ye of (literally and/or metaphorically) اولادكم offspring yours خشىه fright املاق pauperism نحن we نرزقهم we provision them واىاكم and to you ان if قتلهم qatlahum/slew them (literally and/or metaphorically) كان be خطىا fault of كبىرا great of 17:32 ولا and not تقربوا approach ye of الزنا l-zinā انه indeed it كان be فاحشه fāḥishatan/immorality وسا and an evil سبىلا path of 17:33 ولا and not تقتلوا taqtulū/thou slay ye of (literally and/or metaphorically) النفس the soul التى the one حرم prohibit الله the god الا except بالحق in/with the truth ومن and who قتل qutila/slew (literally and/or metaphorically) مظلوما unjust of فقد so verily جعلنا made we of لولىه to heir his سلطانا authority of فلا so not ىسرف exceed (heir shouldn?t take retribution on perpetrator equally) فى in القتل l-qatli/the slay (literally and/or metaphorically) انه indeed he كان be منصورا helped of

Likewise ?in context? other examples of ?slaying the soul? follow including page below ?

17:34 ولا and not تقربوا approach ye of مال wealth الىتىم the orphan الا except بالتى in which هى it is احسن very best حتى until ىبلغ reached اشده vigor his واوفوا and fulfil ye of بالعهد in the covenant ان indeed العهد the covenant كان be مسىولا questioned of 17:35 واوفوا and fulfil ye of الكىل the measure اذا when كلتم measure you وزنوا and weigh ye of بالقسطس with the balance المستقىم the straight ذلك such خىر better واحسن and very best تاوىلا elucidation of

[huruf]

Peace, if taken literally is asking them to commit mass suicide e.g. jumping collectively off high cliff?

2:54 واذ and when قال said موسى Moses لقومه to folk his ىقوم O folk انكم indeed you ظلمتم wrong you انفسكم souls yours/yourselves باتخاذكم in taking you العجل the calf فتوبوا so turn/repent ye of الى to بارىكم creator yours (i.e. by doing the following) فاقتلوا fa-uq'tulū/so slays ye of  انفسكم souls yours  ذلكم such yours خىر better لكم for you عند near/with بارىكم creator yours فتاب so turn علىكم upon you انه indeed he هو he التواب the frequent الرحىم the merciful

17:31 ولا and not تقتلوا taqtulū/thou slay ye of (literally and/or metaphorically) اولادكم offspring yours خشىه fright املاق pauperism نحن we نرزقهم we provision them واىاكم and to you ان if قتلهم qatlahum/slew them (literally and/or metaphorically) كان be خطىا fault of كبىرا great of 17:32 ولا and not تقربوا approach ye of الزنا l-zinā انه indeed it كان be فاحشه fāḥishatan/immorality وسا and an evil سبىلا path of 17:33 ولا and not تقتلوا taqtulū/thou slay ye of (literally and/or metaphorically) النفس the soul التى the one حرم prohibit الله the god الا except بالحق in/with the truth ومن and who قتل qutila/slew (literally and/or metaphorically) مظلوما unjust of فقد so verily جعلنا made we of لولىه to heir his سلطانا authority of فلا so not ىسرف exceed (heir shouldn?t take retribution on perpetrator equally) فى in القتل l-qatli/the slay (literally and/or metaphorically) انه indeed he كان be منصورا helped of

Likewise ?in context? other examples of ?slaying the soul? follow including page below ?

17:34 ولا and not تقربوا approach ye of مال wealth الىتىم the orphan الا except بالتى in which هى it is احسن very best حتى until ىبلغ reached اشده vigor his واوفوا and fulfil ye of بالعهد in the covenant ان indeed العهد the covenant كان be مسىولا questioned of 17:35 واوفوا and fulfil ye of الكىل the measure اذا when كلتم measure you وزنوا and weigh ye of بالقسطس with the balance المستقىم the straight ذلك such خىر better واحسن and very best تاوىلا elucidation of

Thank you for your compiling the ayas on killing the self.

I see that you have brought the matter to a question of killing literally or methaphorically.

I am not sure really it is about that, but rather about the nafs. Finally, we are relying for this question on a duplicity of meanings, picking in a way at will as to what do we want to be in each instance: myself (or yourself or yourselves, etc.) or soul.

Well, inArabic it is one thing, but we seem unable to translate it without splitting what in Arabic is a single one thing.

So, if it is "yourself" you can kill yourself literally, but it is your soul you can't? But the fact is that in Arabic there is not such splitting. If youcan kill your nafs you cankill your nafs.

That is the question and what we are dealing with.

Good logic has tried to arrange it understanding nafs as ego. I understandthe plight but I think that it is not ego (I hate attempts at modernity or modernisations of things that have always existed).

It is because we are making a division of thing that God treats as a single thing and no divisible, but which can be of different kinds. nafs mutma'inna, nafs lawwama, nafs al ammaara...

And in a sense this is the first time I realise that the soe of the thing may be much more interesting that I had thought.

We indeed can kill our self, the kind of self that will lead us where we do not want to go, and let other selves live.

Salaam 

[good logic]

huruf our self that wants to rebel,always pushing the wrong button inside us, Call it the Ego,arrogance...whatever...
We need to fight it...Yes indeed "kill it" . Kill ourselves so we can live peacefully with ourselves(The other self that is still alive!!!) and others..
"Kill yourselves guys" and this thread will be sorted easily. It will be better for all of us.
GOD bless you.
Peace

[Novice]

Salaam Layth

My purpose of pointing out this issue in your interpretation was that we all reflect on the verse and see what is the best interpretation.

Your interpretation could be fine for yourself but don't forget that you are printing it and posting it on line for others as well, who might not know Arabic. It makes them dependent upon your interpretation if they follow you.

It is not a matter of who is correct and who is not but who is trying to understand Quran using his/her God gifted faculties of reason and logic. In the end it is not our interpretation that matters but the message in Quran.

May God help us in understanding Quran.

Regards

[Layth]

Salam Novice,

My purpose of pointing out this issue in your interpretation was that we all reflect on the verse and see what is the best interpretation.

Your interpretation could be fine for yourself but don't forget that you are printing it and posting it on line for others as well, who might not know Arabic. It makes them dependent upon your interpretation if they follow you.

It is not a matter of who is correct and who is not but who is trying to understand Quran using his/her God gifted faculties of reason and logic. In the end it is not our interpretation that matters but the message in Quran.

Your post and that of our family on this forum are always appreciated and everything said is taken into account.

The best we can all do is stay true to the burden and responsibility of transmitting His words and messages.

It is our duty to make sure that we are all true to this task and that we do not let people, or society, or political correctness, stand in the way of the transmission...

The fact of the matter is that the message itself will never be appealing to all people:

10:15 And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said: "Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change it!" Say: "It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great Day!"

[Layth]

Salam,

Here is a quote from page VII

It was the design of the Almighty to resurrect this particular group from the Children of Israel to
manifest His signs. Thus, once they refused to kill themselves, God made them die anyway and then
resurrected them to make His will done?Thus the paradox is removed since God is the only One who
may take life as it is His gift to begin with.

Then why Moses asked them to take their lives. Did he not knew that taking life by humans is forbidden.

فَٱقۡتُلُوٓاْ أَنفُسَكُمۡ ذَٲلِكُمۡ خَيۡرٌ۬ لَّكُمۡ عِندَ بَارِٮِٕكُمۡ


So "iqtaloo" yourself that is better for you with your Maker.....

In 4:29 killing yourself is forbidden but in 2:54 it is commanded. What is missing in our translations?

I have replaced the Preface section that was quoted above with the following to improve on the subject:

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3. Words Can be Lost Over Time

The Arabic language goes back at least 2,200 years to the time of the Nabataeans, as an offshoot of Aramaic. Whilst the Qur?an is only 1,400 years old, there are still some changes that have undergone the use of words in the language as with any language over time. When faced with such a choice where there appears to be a discrepancy in a given meaning, let the other verses where such word is used be your guide: 

[Yusuf Ali Translation]: ?Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered (Ummy) Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.? (Qur?an 7:157)

The word ?Ummy? in today?s Arabic dictionaries and common use refers to a person who: ?cannot read or write.? Therefore, when reading the Qur?an, the common understanding given is that the Prophet was an illiterate man who brought this magnificent text from inspiration, adding to his status as a great man! However, when we look at use of the word in other verses, we come to an understanding that the Prophet could very well read and write, but that he was a ?Gentile? who had no knowledge of previous scriptures:

?If they debate with you, then say: ?I have submitted myself to God, as well as those who follow me.? And say to those who have received the Book and the gentiles (Ummyeen): ?Have you submitted?? If they have submitted then they are guided, and if they turn away, then you are only to deliver, and God is Seer over the servants. ? (Qur?an 3:20)

Another word that has had its meaning diverted over time is the name of God: ?Al-Rahman,? which has come to indicate ?Most Gracious/All Merciful/Beneficent.? This name is thought to be a synonym of the other name widely used in the Qur?an ?Al-Raheem?, however, we know from the Qur?an that the Arab speakers of the time did not recognize this name, let alone its meaning:?

?And if they are told: ?Prostrate to (Al-Rahman).? They say: ?And what is (Al-Rahman)? Shall we prostrate to what you order us?? And it increases their aversion. (Qur?an 25:60)

The word use of the Qur?an gives us a completely different meaning for this name, indicating that it is a name of power and might, used to instil fear in God?s enemies?not mercy and compassion?best translated as ?The Almighty?:

?So she took a veil to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a mortal in all similarity. She said: ?I seek refuge with the Almighty (Al-Rahman) from you if you are righteous.? (Qur?an 19:17-18)

?My father, do not serve the devil. For the devil was ever disobedient to the Almighty (Al-Rahman). My father, I fear that a retribution will inflict you from the Almighty (Al-Rahman) and that you will become an ally to the devil.? (Qur?an 19:44-45)
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[Noon waalqalami]

Thank you for your compiling the ayas on killing the self.

I see that you have brought the matter to a question of killing literally or methaphorically.

Peace huruf, it can be either and/or full spectrum literal and/or metaphorical, need to use context e.g. don't slay your children literally strangle them to death and/or metaphorical e.g. deny them an education, forced child labor, etc. due to pauperism.

17:31 ولا and not تقتلوا thou slay ye of (literally and/or metaphorically) اولادكم offspring yours خشىه fright املاق pauperism نحن we نرزقهم we provision them واىاكم and to you ان if قتلهم slew them (literally and/or metaphorically) كان be خطىا fault of كبىرا great of

In context below it is metaphorically ?
2:54 فتوبوا so repent ye of الى to بارىكم creator yours فاقتلوا so slays ye of انفسكم souls yours (i.e. kill your personas/attitudes/change yourselves)

Likewise in context below not asking for them to "commit mass suicide" and that only a few would actually do it...

4:66 ولو and in case انا we كتبنا wrote/decree we of علىهم upon them ان that اقتلوا slays ye of انفسكم souls yours (metaphorically i.e. kill your personas/attitudes/change yourselves) او or اخرجوا evicts ye of من from دىاركم homes yours ما not فعلوه do they it الا except قلىل little منهم among them ولو and in case انهم that they فعلوا do they of ما what ىوعظون are admonishing به in it لكان to be خىرا better of لهم for them واشد and vigorous تثبىتا assurance of

Another word that has had its meaning diverted over time is the name of God: ?Al-Rahman,? which has come to indicate ?Most Gracious/All Merciful/Beneficent.? This name is thought to be a synonym of the other name widely used in the Qur?an ?Al-Raheem?, however, we know from the Qur?an that the Arab speakers of the time did not recognize this name, let alone its meaning:?

Peace Layth, they knew meaning and their reply was sarcastic; appears 48 times and in archaeology.

1:1 بسم in name الله the god الرحمن l-raḥmāni/the almighty الرحىم l-raḥīmi/the merciful

25:60 واذا and when قىل told لهم to them اسجدوا prostrates ye of للرحمن to the almighty قالوا said they of وما and what الرحمن the almighty انسجد do we prostrate لما to what تامرنا thou directs us وزادهم and enhanced them نفورا aversion of

27:30 انه indeed it من from سلىمان Sulaiman وانه and indeed it بسم in name الله the god الرحمن the almighty الرحىم the merciful

"The Inscription of Abraha"



http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm

b kh ya l / r h m n n

بقوه with strength الرحمن l-raḥmāni/the almighty

[huruf]

Another word that has had its meaning diverted over time is the name of God: ?Al-Rahman,? which has come to indicate ?Most Gracious/All Merciful/Beneficent.? This name is thought to be a synonym of the other name widely used in the Qur?an ?Al-Raheem?, however, we know from the Qur?an that the Arab speakers of the time did not recognize this name, let alone its meaning:?

?And if they are told: ?Prostrate to (Al-Rahman).? They say: ?And what is (Al-Rahman)? Shall we prostrate to what you order us?? And it increases their aversion. (Qur?an 25:60)

The word use of the Qur?an gives us a completely different meaning for this name, indicating that it is a name of power and might, used to instil fear in God?s enemies?not mercy and compassion?best translated as ?The Almighty?:

?So she took a veil to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a mortal in all similarity. She said: ?I seek refuge with the Almighty (Al-Rahman) from you if you are righteous.? (Qur?an 19:17-18)

?My father, do not serve the devil. For the devil was ever disobedient to the Almighty (Al-Rahman). My father, I fear that a retribution will inflict you from the Almighty (Al-Rahman) and that you will become an ally to the devil.? (Qur?an 19:44-45)
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There is a whole sura with that name: Ar-rahmaan.I guess we all know it and there is noneed to quote it. If we are looking in the Qur'an to have a hint as to what might Ar-rahmaan mean, doubtless foremost would come this sura which depicts what Ar-rahmaan did and does. Obviusly, to do anything of which God is capable, he has to be allmighty, that is a given, but I doubt that with Ar-rahmaan it is to His all mightyness that he is pointing.

Sura ar-rahmaan has many repetitions of a sentence, exactly, if I have not counted wrong, 31, which I think it must make it the most repeated sentence in the Qur'an, which says:

Fa bi ayyi 'aalaa'i rabbikumaa tukadhdhibaani
Then which of the favours of your Sustainer will you deny?

To do all the things mentionned in Ar-rahmaan, He must be all mighty, indeed, but is that aspect that He is expounding to us?

I do not think so. He is speaking to the assembly of jinn and men and asking them which favours of their Sustainerr will they deny. I would say, this sura is full of intellect, of marvels of bliss and intellect that He has bestowed on the addressees. I would say it is the mercies que he has bestowed and keeps bestowing that make the big subject, particularly intellectual gifts and enjoyment gifts.

On the other hand, is there any doubt as to the root meaning of  r-h-m, is basic meaning seems to be of understanding and compassion, of the basic passions that tie sentient beings, that attach sentient beings to each other. That in itself is a mercy.

Prophets are a rahma for the universe, because they attach us to the universe and to its creator. Womb is rahim because it makes us start attached to another being who gives us life, like God gave us existence. So I hardly find any reason to contend that ar-rahmaan be understood as all merciful. Ar-rahiim is not a sinonyme, just as words from the same root may be related but not be necessarily sinonymes. I would say most merciful. In the sense ar-rahmaanwould be in extension and ar-rahiim in depth.

Salaam

[Wakas]

peace Layth,

...and even the whole planet (in the case of Noah).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13212.msg110168#msg110168

The context of `Earth` is normally the whole planet (see 2:230, 2:36) unless it is qualified with a prefix as in your example above. The words used by Noah had no such prefix which makes me undertsand it was the whole Earth.

http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/noah-flood-global.htm

12:9 "Kill Joseph or cast him to a land...

12:80 ...I will not leave the land until my father permits me...

[HP_TECH]

Peace Layth

It would be immensely useful if you made it a word for word version like corpus Quran and perhaps even added a column for transliteration.