what is kafir ?

[progod]

Peace,

Thanks for that Arnab. If that is all you can say that is fine. I see you didn't really show me how I was wrong (because i'm not) but just flatly stated I was wrong. But I don't have a problem with that I just hope you review what I've said and really consider the truth of it, I think I was clear enough. As for acquired meanings that is is all subjective. Obviously this meaning theoretically can only go back as far as Judaism goes among Arabs. I would agree in saying that it is most likely a borrowed word taken from Aramaic, Hebrew or even Greek and introduced by Arab Jews or Christians (but I admit this is an assumption even if it is the one most likely to be correct). Now how it came about from a central idea of 'support' is something we may never know. It could have been taken from some word spoken in the Jewish or Christians sphere (that leaves a number of options from Assyrian to demotic or archaic coptic or greek). Or it could be a concept derived from support like supproting the truth, faith, cementing one's faith, oath and dipping in water was the ritual representing that.(just like salat, having a meaning of prayer, has come to mean a certain ritual of prayer that most Arabs make.  Arabic has a number of meanings of roots like that have take a sharp left turn and can be seen independent of the root even though that root meaning was its original point of origin. So let's not be blind to the fact that spin-offs of a root can evolve into totally separate meanings that don't seem to be connected to a essential root meaning.

And lastly if Huruf agreed with me on this issue then she saw the truth. Try to see the trees from the forest.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Makaveli]

Kafiirun means deluded/delusion. This is why if we take words in the Qur'an and translate them in the traditional fashion then the book is full of inconsistencies. How can eblees is described as al-kafiirun in 4:34 when he is clearly not (2:8-19), and is seen clearly talking to God and is even given postponement (15:34-44). Because eblees is not a devil, but the specific word with its own meaning.

[progressive1993]

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609879.msg410866;topicseen#msg410866

[Makaveli]

I think kaffirs can say ok ish things but still act wrongfully. The word is said to mean one who conceals and is concealed from the truth, covered, like how the Qur'an says about a covering over hearts so they can't really understand or do the right thing except unintentionally or on occassion. That Iblees which seems to stem from the word despaired as in who causes one to lose hope (by offering false hope that is demonstrated as a mirage like in the Pagan Battle against Muslims) and loses hope or has lost all hope so is on a spiral of evil counsel all the way to hell. He too is concealed from the option or truth of forgiveness, repenting truly and turning back. The Qur'an says he is a race of being called a jinn which were made before human beings out of a different central substance but is thus as real as a person is real but made out of fire rather than mud or clay. He seemed to have wanted jinn to be the special dominant species rather than put under the dominion of the human mud people.

There were no 'pagan' battles against anyone, since Muhammedians are pagans themselves. But if we speak of Eblees as a devil, which I state is not correct, but if we do, there is no way such force can be deluded either. I am just trying to make others think, if there really is a bad guy whose sole purpose in life is to distract you, or perhaps it is you who are deluded? This is also the question of responsibility. Once we are responsible for our own actions, and do not try to blame them on somethign else, this is when we become thinking beings.