Author Topic: Muhammad Asad's 70:30  (Read 7990 times)

good logic

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2017, 10:30:08 AM »
Man Of Faith, people are being reincarnated in this forum left, right and centre.
You reincarnation theory works. Well at least here.
Out with the old in with the new.
Make sure you come back as "Man Of Logic",I will come back as "Good Faith".
Sorry about the off topic folks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Man of Faith

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2017, 11:14:18 AM »
Thanks for not taking a few hours of my evening tonight. Now I can spend it with the family. Hope you have a good time with yours.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel
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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2017, 12:53:49 PM »
Peace Abdelilah

Because I have a personal probem with ما being addressed to animated beings, i'd prefer something like "what your oath encompass" or something like that (not being the "what" human beings but the content of the oath itself including as, for example, also celibate, etc.)


Have a great day  :sun:

Salaam Virginia

What مَا is referring to in verse 3:7 at red highlighted part in your understanding.

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ عَلَيۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۡهُ ءَايَـٰتٌ۬ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتٌ۬‌ۖ فَأَمَّا ٱلَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمۡ زَيۡغٌ۬ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَـٰبَهَ مِنۡهُ ٱبۡتِغَآءَ ٱلۡفِتۡنَةِ وَٱبۡتِغَآءَ تَأۡوِيلِهِۦ‌ۗ وَمَا يَعۡلَمُ تَأۡوِيلَهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱللَّهُ‌ۗ وَٱلرَّٲسِخُونَ فِى ٱلۡعِلۡمِ يَقُولُونَ ءَامَنَّا بِهِۦ كُلٌّ۬ مِّنۡ عِندِ رَبِّنَا‌ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّآ أُوْلُواْ ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ

Timotheus

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2017, 04:06:13 PM »
Salaam Virginia

What مَا is referring to in verse 3:7 at red highlighted part in your understanding.

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ عَلَيۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۡهُ ءَايَـٰتٌ۬ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتٌ۬‌ۖ فَأَمَّا ٱلَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمۡ زَيۡغٌ۬ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَـٰبَهَ مِنۡهُ ٱبۡتِغَآءَ ٱلۡفِتۡنَةِ وَٱبۡتِغَآءَ تَأۡوِيلِهِۦ‌ۗ وَمَا يَعۡلَمُ تَأۡوِيلَهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱللَّهُ‌ۗ وَٱلرَّٲسِخُونَ فِى ٱلۡعِلۡمِ يَقُولُونَ ءَامَنَّا بِهِۦ كُلٌّ۬ مِّنۡ عِندِ رَبِّنَا‌ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّآ أُوْلُواْ ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ

Peace,

This is probably a negative ma, I.e
And it's interpretation is not known except by God and those well rooted in the knowledge.
Or
And none knows it's interpretation except God and those well rooted in knowledge.

I think the ma in ma malikat iimanikum could be a relative ma, used in the sense of "as long as" I.e as long as you posses your oath. This seems likely considering the context of the concept in the Quran and the previous scripture

See wolfdietrich fischer grammar of classical Arabic paragraph 289.2 and 462 (pg 151, 234)

The Quran, in my understanding has used it is this sense, but often joined to other particles or a pronoun.

Peace

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2017, 04:33:31 PM »
Thanks Timotheus

I know this "MA" is a negation but is it not referring to animated beings? That was my point with reference to Virginia's post where she said she has a personal problem with "MA" being addressed to animated beings.

Or does "MA" in 2:255 (Highlighted in red in the verse) not refer to animated as well as non-animated beings

ٱللَّهُ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡحَىُّ ٱلۡقَيُّومُ‌ۚ لَا تَأۡخُذُهُ ۥ سِنَةٌ۬ وَلَا نَوۡمٌ۬‌ۚ لَّهُ ۥ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۗ مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشۡفَعُ عِندَهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا بِإِذۡنِهِۦ‌ۚ يَعۡلَمُ مَا بَيۡنَ أَيۡدِيهِمۡ وَمَا خَلۡفَهُمۡ‌ۖ وَلَا يُحِيطُونَ بِشَىۡءٍ۬ مِّنۡ عِلۡمِهِۦۤ إِلَّا بِمَا شَآءَ‌ۚ وَسِعَ كُرۡسِيُّهُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ‌ۖ وَلَا يَـُٔودُهُ ۥ حِفۡظُهُمَا‌ۚ وَهُوَ ٱلۡعَلِىُّ ٱلۡعَظِيمُ

.......................To him belong whatever is in the earth or the heavens.........
Salaam

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2017, 11:12:56 PM »
Peace,

This is probably a negative ma, I.e
And it's interpretation is not known except by God and those well rooted in the knowledge.
Or
And none knows it's interpretation except God and those well rooted in knowledge.

I think the ma in ma malikat iimanikum could be a relative ma, used in the sense of "as long as" I.e as long as you posses your oath. This seems likely considering the context of the concept in the Quran and the previous scripture

See wolfdietrich fischer grammar of classical Arabic paragraph 289.2 and 462 (pg 151, 234)

The Quran, in my understanding has used it is this sense, but often joined to other particles or a pronoun.

Peace


Peace, Novice and Timotheus
Thanks for answering
I've been thinking of "as long as" too as an understandig of ما in MMA but the truth  is i did not find it suitable for other cases... In 2:255 it includes animated by extension, if you think of it it means "whatever" and only by extension it refers to animated. Gladly i will tell u later when i reach a pc today  :pr

. Check te verses with ما regarding strictly animated beings in several interpretations and you will find out it is very weirdly only intepreted as "whom" in MMA, regarding women or idols worshiped besides Allah... In 3:7 it cant be a relative because there is just a relative right after it: "then who who" (?)  In the first case and it is clearly a negation as you say in the second case. That is why i think there is a problem with ما here (i dont see how it could be a negation in MMA)  not that i found a solution for it or in the other cases. I will come back later so you can help me  ;D. Of course there is 1 or 2 examples where it seems to have to refer to animated, but still as i said this is kind of my own personal issue to see it clearly :confused:Thanks Again

God bless you  :sun:

huruf

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2017, 12:04:47 AM »
The problem in this and another cases is to translate and then want that yranslation to apply it back to the Arabic.
Like in the expression ma taaba lakummin an-nisaa'  the ma is con making things of the nisaa' but it is being used with a partitif, from among the nisaa' what seems right to you is a whole concept which encloses the individul woman with he situation whe stands in, and the situation of her orphan and you own situation. In Sanish it could be trnaslated con "lo", whih is neuter and takes into account more than a person seeming good to you.

In the other case the mamalakaat aymanuhum-kum, etc. It is again not speaking about persos, mamalkat al ayman may be the protective quality YOUR RIGHT HAND POSSESSES. obviously it is not a person, man or woman who is possessed by anybody but your right hand, that is the hand that does good, in whi it is the good of that person. Eben when the Arabic is quite explicit we tend to suppress things tht are full of meaning, somebody possessing something or somebody is not by any means something being in one's right hand, and if something is in one's right hand that means that one's riht hand is in possession of that that something, in this sense mamalakat ayrefers to the relationship of protection with respect to some persons, not the possession of the persons, may be a chorter expression than the whole explanation but I think Arabic makes it plain that nobody es a possession of anybody else, but that there is a relationship og goodness shownby the Right hand.

Some prefer to translate by oaths possessed by oaths, but I think the word "right" hand is there for some reason, y it is a relatiobship where you show you best disposition to help along a person.

In those cases obviously a woman or man who is already protecting a person, showing him or her her generosity may well undertke and commit to a deeper relationship withut betraying any virtue or decent behaviour.

Salaam

huruf

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2017, 12:12:51 AM »
NNo we are used to societies in which people usually do not die young, but inmany societies and in fact till not very long ago, orphans were very common, people who wereleft without a close direct relative. We can imagine that many people lived under the pupilage of other relatives or close who untertook to take care of them, they were right hand possessions. With a right hand possession mey be or may be not there could be a relative with chom you could arrange a marriage with all formality, if not you just undertook that commitment in whatever the fashion. Was.In aciente Egypt there did not seem to be a ceremony for marriage, where two people of different sex spent the night under the same rook they were deemed as married for all legal purposes.

So seen under other eyes than our so civilised and virtuous of our age, many things are explained withoutthe need to throw silly thing on those people.

Arabia at that timemight be corrupted, but I do not think they had forgotten older institutions and even matriarchal traits.

Salaam

Man of Faith

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2017, 03:10:39 AM »
The root of Malik does not mean one owns something but is in control of. Here is appears to speak of control of your hands, malekat aymanekum.
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Wilson

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Re: Muhammad Asad's 70:30
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2017, 12:49:14 PM »
2:224-225. And do not make God the subject of your casual OATHS. Be pious and righteous and reconcile among the people; and God is Hearer, Knower. God will not call you to account for your casual OATHS...

5:89. God will not hold you for your casual OATHS, but He will hold you for what OATHS you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find such shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your OATHS when you swear...

5:108. This is best as they are more likely to bring the testimony as intended, or face that their OATHS would be disregarded as the previous OATHS...

9:12-13. And if they break their OATHS after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your system; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their OATHS are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease. Would you not fight a people who broke their OATHS, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first...

16:91-92. And fulfill your pledge to God when you pledge so, and do not break your OATH after making it, for you have made God a sponsor over you. God is aware of what you do. And do not be like she who unraveled her knitting after it had become strong, by breaking your OATHS as a means of deception between you...

16:94. And do not use your OATHS as a means of deception between you...

24:53. And they swear by God with their strongest OATHS that if you would only command them they would mobilize...

66:2. God has already given the law, regarding the cancellation of OATHS...

4:33. And for each We have made inheritors for what was left behind by the parents and the relatives. And those bound by your OATHS (aqadat aymanukum)...