Author Topic: The bible corrupted?  (Read 11491 times)

EdQ

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2017, 08:59:10 AM »
Does any of ayets ordered Muslims to take huden (guidance) from Injeel or Tewrat?

Even it's too obvious, Injeel and Tewrat are huden and kitab (set of laws) only for Beni Israil and nations from them. None of Muslims should follow anything from those two.

Form of the Qur'an is different then Tewrat or Injeel. Tewrat is totally explained (fa-sad-lam) and one can read it from its start to the end and get his huden. Injeel is specific, because Allah's Words in El-Mesih a.s. were spoken in alegories then explained in detail (fa-sad-lam), same as in Tewrat. This is because some of the creatures can get huden only from something obvious, w/o using deduction.

The language of the Qur'an is specific, because it's impossible to understand it w/o using deduction. With deduction ayets of the Qur'an are enriched (kaf-ra-mim). None of Beni Israil was invited to follow the Qur'an alone, because they can't understand it. They should take from the Qur'an only informations about what was changed (edited) in huden they have, these ayets are fully explained (fa-sad-lam) and can be understood by any sane person.

Injeel and Tewrat are not corrupted, because there is musaddaq (informer about their truth), which is the Qur'an. But, Injeel and Tewrat w/o informations about them in the Qur'an will misguide Beni Israil in many situations.

To believe in a script would mean one would have to read it.
But using the logic in the post above, does any ayat tell Muslims to believe in all the volumes of scriptures (Hadith) that came after the Quran?
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Aladin

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2017, 12:14:58 PM »
There's a big difference: Tewrat and Injeel are from Allah swt for sure.

I don't see importance of them for Muslims. Why you're so interested in the Bible (or better: Tewrat and Injeel) if you Muslims?
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EdQ

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2017, 04:19:35 PM »
There's a big difference: Tewrat and Injeel are from Allah swt for sure.

I don't see importance of them for Muslims. Why you're so interested in the Bible (or better: Tewrat and Injeel) if you Muslims?

Does the Quran not say that the believers are to believe in ALL of the scriptures and make no differentiation between ANY of the prophets?  So those prophet who are messengers and gave books to humans need to be followed just like Muhammad.
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Aladin

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2017, 06:02:48 PM »
Tewrat and Injeel are for Beni Israil, and they're "min duni-n-nas".

وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ
This doesn't mean that I have to follow anything from Tewrat and/or Injeel, but I'm saying: they're from Allah.

All the creatures are believers, but some are telling so (mu'minoon) and some are rejecting their belief (kafiroon). Some are liars (kaziboon) and some are hiding (munafiqoon), some have no knowledge (jahiloon).

I have knowledge that Tewrat and Injeel are from Allah and I'm saying so, it's my 'iman, but I don't need to follow anything from them, since I'm not of Beni Israil.

Don't forget that there're (at least) two types of creatures in el-'alemoon: el-jinn and en-nas. Not all of persons you see are en-nas.

You don't need to follow all of en-nebiyy. How can you?
el-insan + el-jaann = ins

EdQ

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2017, 04:08:27 AM »
Tewrat and Injeel are for Beni Israil, and they're "min duni-n-nas".

وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ
This doesn't mean that I have to follow anything from Tewrat and/or Injeel, but I'm saying: they're from Allah.

All the creatures are believers, but some are telling so (mu'minoon) and some are rejecting their belief (kafiroon). Some are liars (kaziboon) and some are hiding (munafiqoon), some have no knowledge (jahiloon).

I have knowledge that Tewrat and Injeel are from Allah and I'm saying so, it's my 'iman, but I don't need to follow anything from them, since I'm not of Beni Israil.

Don't forget that there're (at least) two types of creatures in el-'alemoon: el-jinn and en-nas. Not all of persons you see are en-nas.

You don't need to follow all of en-nebiyy. How can you?

My question was about the verse in the Quran where believers are asked to believe in ALL the scriptures and and make not distinction between ANY of the prophets.  I am not sure if I made my question clear earlier. in regard to those verses in the Quran...

Also, how do you know you are not from the children of Israel?  Whether you are white, brown, black or any other shade, you could possibly have genes from the Children of Israel - not that we know what they are - however, those genes would have originated on the Arabian Peninsula (certainly not in Europe) - nevertheless if you look at the genes of Genghis Khan or Prophet Muhammad, you will see that even those genes have spread all over the world.

 
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Aladin

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2017, 12:37:33 PM »
It's very important to know meaning of the word "beyn", which is mostly rendered as "between", but its meaning is "connection". So, ayet you're telling about is about confirmation that all of them are connected, and we cannot make separation in their connection. Anyways, even with a common understanding of "beyn", nobody can understand that we Muslims have to follow Tewrat/Injeel.

Qur'an told me that I'm not Beni Israil, and I got explanation who they are also. I've found it very important for all of us to know who we are. Most of the people are following revalations which are not for them... some should follow the Qur'an but they're following the Bible, and vice versa.

Yes, you're right about genes... maybe you read in the Bible about mixing humans with "God's sons"; maybe you read in the Qur'an about "Allah's sons", or maybe you understood same by deduction. So, first of all, we have to know "who am I?".
el-insan + el-jaann = ins

good logic

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2017, 12:45:00 PM »
Peace Aladin.

I do not understand the following,quote:
 Most of the people are following revalations which are not for them... some should follow the Qur'an but they're following the Bible, and vice versa.

You mean  Qoran is not for "Alaalamin" all of them?
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EdQ

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2017, 12:25:26 PM »
It's very important to know meaning of the word "beyn", which is mostly rendered as "between", but its meaning is "connection". So, ayet you're telling about is about confirmation that all of them are connected, and we cannot make separation in their connection. Anyways, even with a common understanding of "beyn", nobody can understand that we Muslims have to follow Tewrat/Injeel.

Qur'an told me that I'm not Beni Israil, and I got explanation who they are also. I've found it very important for all of us to know who we are. Most of the people are following revalations which are not for them... some should follow the Qur'an but they're following the Bible, and vice versa.

Yes, you're right about genes... maybe you read in the Bible about mixing humans with "God's sons"; maybe you read in the Qur'an about "Allah's sons", or maybe you understood same by deduction. So, first of all, we have to know "who am I?".

1. How do you know you are not one of the children of Israel as alluded to in my above posting?
2. You have used lots of maybes in relation to what I maybe did - You could have just asked me as this is a dialogue and I would tell you I have read lots of things but am note sure what you link of them is to genetics as related to you being originated from the Children of Israel?
3. You focus on the word "beyn" - please see below http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/285/default.htm

2:285
Amana alrrasoolu bima onzila ilayhi min rabbihi waalmu/minoona kullun amana biAllahi wamala-ikatihi wakutubihi warusulihi la nufarriqu bayna ahadin min rusulihi waqaloo samiAAna waataAAna ghufranaka rabbana wa-ilayka almaseeru

Believed the Messenger in what was revealed to him from his Lord and the believers. All believed in Allah, and His Angels, and His Books, and His Messengers. "Not we make distinction between any of His And they said, "We heard and we obeyed. (Grant) us Your forgiveness our Lord, and to You (is) the return."

Please note that the statement to believe in all His books comes before your word of focus so how is it not permissible to believe in all His books?

So would this make the first Muslims different from the Muslims now if the Muslims today decide not to believe in ALL His books?
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EdQ

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2017, 12:41:42 PM »
It's very important to know meaning of the word "beyn", which is mostly rendered as "between", but its meaning is "connection". So, ayet you're telling about is about confirmation that all of them are connected, and we cannot make separation in their connection. Anyways, even with a common understanding of "beyn", nobody can understand that we Muslims have to follow Tewrat/Injeel.

Qur'an told me that I'm not Beni Israil, and I got explanation who they are also. I've found it very important for all of us to know who we are. Most of the people are following revalations which are not for them... some should follow the Qur'an but they're following the Bible, and vice versa.

Yes, you're right about genes... maybe you read in the Bible about mixing humans with "God's sons"; maybe you read in the Qur'an about "Allah's sons", or maybe you understood same by deduction. So, first of all, we have to know "who am I?".

Also what about this verse 39:63
For Him (are the) keys (of) the heavens and the earth. And those who disbelieve in (the) Verses (of) Allah, those - they (are) the losers.
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Aladin

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Re: The bible corrupted?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2017, 12:45:46 PM »
Word which was translated as "believe" is "confirming our belief", even that is not a big diffence for your question.

I believe that El-Furqan was sent by Allah, as said in 4:3. Does this mean I have to follow it, even I have to know what is in it? No, I believe it from Allah, and I am stating so.

Just think if anything from the Qur'an is about following Tewrat/Injeel or anything else except what is said in the Qur'an and what Resulullah sawa personally said to somebody. If you know any other source of guidance for last Ummet of humans, please share that info.

I used "maybes" only when I was talking about you, I don't know you. What I told before that needed no "maybe", even I should check all of what I think I know all the time.

You should differ "belief" of "following/obeying". You have to believe in melaiket (angels), but you don't have to obey them. It was said in 2:102 that some of them used to teach sheyateen tricks (sihr) and something more evil, and sheyateen were teaching humans same after that... so you have to believe in them, but you don't need to follow them, if Allah didn't say so.

good logic, el-'alemoon are at least humans (en-nas) and jinn (el-jinnet), but there're few more types of creatures. Yes, all of us have something in the Qur'an, but all of the Qur'an is only for humans (en-nas).
el-insan + el-jaann = ins