Author Topic: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?  (Read 6875 times)

Jafar

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 10:19:02 AM »

The only valid way is to reconcile the Torah and Gospels is a verse by verse basis. If the meaning of the verse is the same as the Quran in context, then it reconciliable to that specific verse of the Quran.

So, the Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
Agree or if disagree, your views?

If 'corrupted' here means not in 100% accordance to truth.. then yes..
And it's applicable to any books, including Quran..

The only valid way is to reconcile each statement on any book to the facts based on observation and evidence..

I'm now more interested on the 'why' aspect, the motivation aspect...
Human wrote ridiculous things into a book which either highly regarded by society or enforceable to society must have certain goal / objective in mind..

A silly example: And God said: Thou shall buy Trump property worldwide..
If such statement found in any holy (or unholy) book, I will not hesitate to declare it as ridiculous... and will not budge no matter how other people declare the book to be holy / written by God etc... even if they threatened to kill me for being a kuffar / disbeliever to the book. Most probably such statement was written with economic goal in mind and written by Trump's real estate sales agent.




Nonetheless

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 07:10:33 PM »
If 'corrupted' here means not in 100% accordance to truth.. then yes..
And it's applicable to any books, including Quran..

The only valid way is to reconcile each statement on any book to the facts based on observation and evidence..

I'm now more interested on the 'why' aspect, the motivation aspect...
Human wrote ridiculous things into a book which either highly regarded by society or enforceable to society must have certain goal / objective in mind..

A silly example: And God said: Thou shall buy Trump property worldwide..
If such statement found in any holy (or unholy) book, I will not hesitate to declare it as ridiculous... and will not budge no matter how other people declare the book to be holy / written by God etc... even if they threatened to kill me for being a kuffar / disbeliever to the book. Most probably such statement was written with economic goal in mind and written by Trump's real estate sales agent.
Noted your point, but it is off topic.

The OP, "The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?" meant from the perspective of the Quran-only, the Bible is Corrupted.
Some people do not accept the OP and give various reasons from the Quran itself to support their point.

From the perspective of the Bible itself, obviously the Christians will not accept the Bible is corrupted.

Jafar

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2017, 03:11:18 AM »

The OP, "The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?" meant from the perspective of the Quran-only, the Bible is Corrupted.
Some people do not accept the OP and give various reasons from the Quran itself to support their point.

From the perspective of the Bible itself, obviously the Christians will not accept the Bible is corrupted.

This might be a 'surprise' for some...

Many if not most of the 0-7th century Jews and Christians "scholars" DO think that the TANAKH bundle has been tampered by scribes.  They routinely debate which book should be in the bundle and which book should not... Every group has their own version of "official books" / official 'scrolls'... The opinion of "The Tanakh scripture contains both true and falsehood' is common among the scholars.

I deliberately put "scholars" there due to the literacy rate during those times were merely around 10% of the total population. Thus whether there's a 'modification' in the bundle or not it doesn't really matter as most people cannot read anyway. And of course the question of "Which bundle are you talking about?"...

Let alone to own a 'personal TANAKH', as the scrolls might cost comparably to brand new Ferrari sport car nowadays. Thus most people just cannot afford it.

So the common people really doesn't care whether the Tanakh scrolls has been tampered or not...
Because they rely on their "Rebbe" to teach them about anything.. orally... the 'rebbe' often teaches and speaks in public occassion, in town hall meetings, in Synagogues, in the marketplace etc.

A group of rebbe might disagree among them too...And that's how the 'sect' got its shapes..
Jesus is among those 'rebbe' and so does John, his own cousin and many others..
You can read even in the books of Matt, Mark or Luke that on some matters even Jesus and John disagree... And on some matters Jesus and other 'unnamed' Jewish rebbe agree.... (example: regarding the most important commandment: do unto others what you might want for others to do to yourselves)

Each group then might have their own version of 'official bundle'.. and within the bundle each individual might have their own interpretation of the content... or even decided to write their own content... thus a 'new book' was born..

If we wound up the clock to around those times and you ask "Whether the present Bible is corrupted" then they will be confused.. because they don't recognized the word "Bible". If you then reword to "present Tanakh" then they might ask "which Tanakh are you talking about"? If you answer with the name of specific sect or group.. then which book? if you answer with specific book then which STATEMENT? Only then you can have an intelligent conversation ...  The group of rebbes commonly discussed on 'statement' level.... mind you that even verse numbering was not yet invented back then...







Bender

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2017, 06:24:38 AM »
The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?

There are many verses in the Quran that made reference to the Torah and Injil, i.e.
1. The messenger confirmed the Torah and Injil
2. Messenger and Muslims to judge by the Torah and Injil were relevant

But despite the above, the implications are that the Present Bible is Corrupted because there were changes, omission, etc, and ultimately they have elements of sonship in the Torah, sonship, trinity and crucifixion in the NT and these elements has differ from the original revelations of Allah revealed to the prophets of old.

Therefore as per the Quran [only], the Torah and Gospels as whole Books are corrupted by the Jews and Christians throughout the generations till the present copies.

The only valid way is to reconcile the Torah and Gospels is a verse by verse basis. If the meaning of the verse is the same as the Quran in context, then it reconciliable to that specific verse of the Quran.

So, the Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
Agree or if disagree, your views?

Hi Nonetheless and welcome to the forum  :handshake:

Imo the words indjeel and tawraat are not names of books (and certainly not names for what we know now as the gospels and the torah.
They are just like the words hikma, mizaan, etc which are also not a names of books.
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Man of Faith

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2017, 07:40:00 AM »
I agree that they are not books. To me they are something the prophet came with, i.e. elaboration or expansion of the already present teachings. That is what Injeel means as a word too according to my studies.

Towrat is something ambiguous and in my mind they refer to the directives revealed to Moses. Delving into the etymological sources can show a connection like this.

If by Moses there was unexplained directives then they were elaborated on by Jesus/Eysua/Isa.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2017, 09:42:09 PM »
Hi Nonetheless and welcome to the forum  :handshake:

Imo the words indjeel and tawraat are not names of books (and certainly not names for what we know now as the gospels and the torah.
They are just like the words hikma, mizaan, etc which are also not a names of books.
Thanks.

I agree the names 'injeel and 'tawraat' are not mentioned in the Quran.
Perhaps I could state 'Book [Musa]' and 'Book [Isa]' with reference to the complete [not final] revelations revealed to both Prophets & messengers.

owlwithbow

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2018, 12:12:31 PM »
The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?

There are many verses in the Quran that made reference to the Torah and Injil, i.e.
1. The messenger confirmed the Torah and Injil
2. Messenger and Muslims to judge by the Torah and Injil were relevant

But despite the above, the implications are that the Present Bible is Corrupted because there were changes, omission, etc, and ultimately they have elements of sonship in the Torah, sonship, trinity and crucifixion in the NT and these elements has differ from the original revelations of Allah revealed to the prophets of old.

Therefore as per the Quran [only], the Torah and Gospels as whole Books are corrupted by the Jews and Christians throughout the generations till the present copies.

The only valid way is to reconcile the Torah and Gospels is a verse by verse basis. If the meaning of the verse is the same as the Quran in context, then it reconciliable to that specific verse of the Quran.

So, the Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
Agree or if disagree, your views?

How can the Injeel survive for hundreds of years and the Zabur and the Tawrat for nearly thousands of years before the Revelation of the Quran? How can Muhammad order the people to believe in the Injeel and the Tauwrat (see Quran 5:43, 5:47, 5:68 etc.)?

For me, it's evidence that the Scriptures were there in the lifetime of Muhammad. This evidence is from the Quran. Like i said, check just 5:68, and that's actually more then enough. But there are more, 2:285, 3:3, 4:136, 5:43/46/47/68, 29:46 etc.

This whole "it's changed" topic is only fueled by ignorant people who don't know the languages of these Books and never touched a manuscript. They believe sectarian false teachers, who they claim to reject in the first place..

How can the Quran ask us to believe in those Books? How can Muhammad order the people to believe in those Books? And how can you people copy and paste lies and say it's changed? Lets think about it, you are alive in the time of Muhammad, and Muhammad orders the people to believe and uphold those Books and Muhammad orders the people to judge with the Gospel. What are you going to say? "it's changed"?
One God, many different Messengers, but One Message.

owlwithbow

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2018, 12:20:21 PM »
And my point is, the Gospels are quite authentic even though they cannot be regarded as divine revelations because some men wrote down what Jesus said. The problem with them is that they are not in the original language which Jesus spoke. They are obvious translations of his wordings and you can see signs of this while reading. An example is that the Greek writers did not translate the Semitic word amen in the text even if it is perfectly possible to do so. The original utterance was without doubt in a Semitic language. The translation goes "amen amen I tell you", but the translators might as well have translated it for what it is which is "be sure be sure I tell you". Amen is not a magical word impossible or even hard to translate. If you say the Semitic word in prayer you might as well change it into something in your own language.

So due to this there are multiple errors and phrases in the Syriac Aramaic which have a meaning which is lost in translating them into another language without first reflecting upon how it best is translated into another language.

My own conclusion is that the translators into Greek were quite bad at Aramaic, or the other way around (!), so therefore the translation has to carry their lack of competence to this day. One mistake was to translate abbu as father without giving an explanation of the word and same goes for ibn.

The question is whether there exists an original compilation of Jesus' sayings in Syriac Aramaic or if they are all long gone. If there was I could vastly improve the Gospels' accuracy in English.

Because I know many possible mistakes one can make when directly translating a Semitic language into another language I can identify what should be right in the translation even without having the original script.

And because of what Jesus says in the Biblical Gospels I am beyond doubt certain they are from him. Disregarding the source they are highly intelligent and true and also guiding.

Be well
Amenuel

It's not Aramaic. The Aramaic do not include a few chapters/books in the Injeel. I went to their church, and i also thought it was Aramaic for a while. But it isn't. The Aramaic church itself admits that the Injeel is Greek, they have Aramaic chapters that were translated from Greek.

Greek was like English, so it makes sense that it is written in Greek. Also the Jews were living across the Roman empire, they were speaking Greek. Like we speak English today.

The point is, the Quran confirmed that the Injeel was there in Muhammads lifetime, see 5:47, and he even ordered them to judge with the Gospel. So the whole argument that there is no Original anymore is just a lie. Why would Muhammad order people to uphold the Tora and the Injeel, see 5:68? Would God and Hes Messenger order people things which are impossible?

The Tora and the Injeel were there in hes lifetime, and are still the same, and are now with us, in Hebrew and Greek. You have to do your own investigation. And pray to God for guidance. Don't follow wolves and false teachers.
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owlwithbow

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2018, 12:23:44 PM »
Thanks.

I agree the names 'injeel and 'tawraat' are not mentioned in the Quran.
Perhaps I could state 'Book [Musa]' and 'Book [Isa]' with reference to the complete [not final] revelations revealed to both Prophets & messengers.

They are. In Arabic "Injeel" and "Tawraa", and even "Zabur", and it mentions other Scriptures.

It also mentions the word "Koetoeb", which means Books.

See the Quran in many places, just read it from cover to cover if you know how to read Arabic, but i will give you at least 2 places, 5:46, and 2:285. There are many other places. It's clear enough for those who read.
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TheUnseenLight

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Re: The Quran Implied the Present Bible is Corrupted?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 05:07:52 PM »
Peace Owl,

I agree wit your statements, and I am interested in hearing more about your feedback on this topic, I tried to send you a PM but it says you do not accept PM's?