Poll

Do you think "Reincarnation" make sense?

Yes, It Make Sense and I have an argument below
0 (0%)
Yes, It Make Sense but I don't have an argument
1 (25%)
No It doesn't make sense because my holy book said so
0 (0%)
No It  doesn't make sense and I explain why below and it has nothing to do with what is being said in holy book
0 (0%)
I don't know
3 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Author Topic: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?  (Read 1429 times)

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3699
  • Gender: Male
Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« on: January 11, 2017, 12:32:42 PM »
By reincarnation it is:
The same consciousness assuming different identity and physical body on different space and time, with or without memory about their previous or past identity.

The thought was triggered after I watched this illustrative short video, although it actually has nothing to do with reincarnation.

What Are You?
https://youtu.be/JQVmkDUkZT4

HP_TECH

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 03:20:43 PM »
Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?

Well define Reincarnation first.

If you are referring to reincarnation in the conventional sense, then I must say it does not make sense.

However, if you are referring to reincarnation in light of the Quran, as in Resurrection in the Hereafter after Allah Has Judged, then I would say it makes sense.
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Comrox

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 12:09:45 AM »
Still not sure, honestly. :)
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

HP_TECH

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2017, 06:52:11 PM »
Are you a Muslim?
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3699
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 12:41:31 AM »
The idea of 'reincarnation', once considered as 'blasphomous' by the western world  (middle east included) which was under heavy influence of Judeo-Christianity-Islam religion is gaining a momentum nowadays..

Infact, today's Judaism has somehow embraced the idea of 'reincarnation'..
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Starting from late 20th century, the idea of 'reincarnation' started to enter 'scientific community'.. 'western scientific community' to be exact with pioneer like Dr Ian Stevenson. He has written many papers and books relating to the research on the topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson

Just google his name to see his presentation / documentary video or paper.

He has recorded myriad of convincing cases of children who has memory of his/her past life... and all of the information given by the child about his/her past identity and life can be confirmed to be correct.
Interesting enough there are also cases where a boy lived a past identity as a girl and vice versa..




Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2017, 02:34:39 AM »
I find it much more consistent than the sectarian (Avrahamic) interpretation of life. It is the understanding that I embrace. It is something I have studied a lot in recent years.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2017, 02:38:04 AM »
Are you a Muslim?

He is muslim, not A Muslim, as the word should be used.
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

HP_TECH

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2017, 02:47:00 AM »
I find it much more consistent than the sectarian (Avrahamic) interpretation of life. It is the understanding that I embrace. It is something I have studied a lot in recent years.

Be well
Amenuel

If you do not desist, you are going to be carrying a heavy load for all the misleading you have been conducting in this forum. So carry on if you will
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2017, 03:02:02 AM »
The idea of 'reincarnation', once considered as 'blasphomous' by the western world  (middle east included) which was under heavy influence of Judeo-Christianity-Islam religion is gaining a momentum nowadays..

Infact, today's Judaism has somehow embraced the idea of 'reincarnation'..
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Starting from late 20th century, the idea of 'reincarnation' started to enter 'scientific community'.. 'western scientific community' to be exact with pioneer like Dr Ian Stevenson. He has written many papers and books relating to the research on the topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson

Just google his name to see his presentation / documentary video or paper.

He has recorded myriad of convincing cases of children who has memory of his/her past life... and all of the information given by the child about his/her past identity and life can be confirmed to be correct.
Interesting enough there are also cases where a boy lived a past identity as a girl and vice versa..

Ancient Judaism does seem to have supported and even embraced the concept of reincarnation. It appears that somewhere between 500BC and 1000AD (probably even later) that clergymen gave their reinterpretation of things without the ability to understand older writings. When reading Jesus utterance as he heals a blind man's eyes of saying "you are forgiven" it indicates the man must have done something prior to his birth as he was apparently born blind.

And that is hardly a forgiving because he had done some silly original sin in a kind of paradise, and how unfair is that god in punishing all mankind for a mistake one (or two) people did? That traditional story is not consistent.

And to expand with philosophy, how fair is it that the man was born blind while others are not?

And how fair is it that some people are born in wartorn regions while some are born in (so far) harmonious European countries?

And how consistent is it with having lived only that life? A reasonable person would require a more logically sound answer.

The simple explanation is that it is because of what they have previously done. One shall reap what they have sown. What goes around comes around. One should experience something of the full magnitude of their deeds (an adaptation of what Yesaya said).

The sect Islam is just an invention by separatist Persian Jewish clergymen with significant influence enough to rally for a new religion. Mostly everything they interpreted to be against is actually the truth, although slightly misrepresented. That you are a kind of "child of God" is true. That you are to be affiliated/associated with God is true. That you should be one in the originator and the originator in you is true. That you "stay in the fire" for only a number of days is true. That knowledge was from before the uprisings of the mighty Persian (Pharisee) Jewish clergymen beginning before Jesus and onwards for a millennium or so until all opposition and their knowledge was lost although yet relatively preserved in East Asian faith systems. People may have immigrated westward or embraced Christianity or let themselves be assimilated in the new sect Islam. I know many had gone into disputes and diverted into own sects which lived forth into the 1200s AD and fragments of their teachings are still alive today.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2017, 03:07:33 AM »
If you do not desist, you are going to be carrying a heavy load for all the misleading you have been conducting in this forum. So carry on if you will

If you can prove to me I am misleading, I will desist, but no one has come with logically consistent arguments to counter that. And I am reinforced by own work of research on Quran so you are in a quite weak position to judge who is misleading.

How about your misleadings; claiming the Earth to be a flat expanse, God is punishing people eternally for being confused and deluded in a difficult environment, God has clear human characteristics and it would appear I am more advanced than that god and the list could go on but this is what crossed my mind as I was brainstorming.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2017, 03:09:18 AM »
If you do not desist, you are going to be carrying a heavy load for all the misleading you have been conducting in this forum. So carry on if you will

Furthermore, you could learn something from the what I laid forth to Jafar now recently and counter the arguments which you did NOT do with this post but only pulled a strawman.
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3699
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2017, 05:34:11 AM »
Ancient Judaism does seem to have supported and even embraced the concept of reincarnation. It appears that somewhere between 500BC and 1000AD (probably even later) that clergymen gave their reinterpretation of things without the ability to understand older writings.

The druze (yet another branch of Israelites tradition) seems to have similar opinion / belief regarding afterlife..

I found a unique case of a 3 years old druze boy who remember his past life being murdered, point out to 'the burial site' of his previous body / identity and also identify his murderer.

The story was recorded by Israeli doctor and Professor of medicine Eli Lasch, and appear on his book "From Doctor To Spiritual Healer"

The Three-Year-Old Who Convicted His Murderer
http://www.esolibris.com/articles/reincarnation/three_year_old.php


Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2017, 12:10:41 PM »
The druze (yet another branch of Israelites tradition) seems to have similar opinion / belief regarding afterlife..

I found a unique case of a 3 years old druze boy who remember his past life being murdered, point out to 'the burial site' of his previous body / identity and also identify his murderer.

The story was recorded by Israeli doctor and Professor of medicine Eli Lasch, and appear on his book "From Doctor To Spiritual Healer"

The Three-Year-Old Who Convicted His Murderer
http://www.esolibris.com/articles/reincarnation/three_year_old.php

That is interesting. I do not need more to be absolutely convinced, but always interesting to hear stories.

I am however always critical of sources, and it seems there might be bias since the child is a member of this religion and many religious people circumvent important parameters of logic and reason in order to validate their faith.

If the child could recall his previous life cycle so well he must have a very developed spirit of his soul and it would also mean he is close to release from the flesh and if he gave in a good effort he might in this current cycle. At the same time this is why I am a little bit skeptical since the number of mentally adept are not exactly in majority so the probability they are frauds (deluded) is high.

It does not affect me though whether the story is right or wrong.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3699
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM »
That is interesting. I do not need more to be absolutely convinced, but always interesting to hear stories.

I am however always critical of sources, and it seems there might be bias since the child is a member of this religion and many religious people circumvent important parameters of logic and reason in order to validate their faith.

If the child could recall his previous life cycle so well he must have a very developed spirit of his soul and it would also mean he is close to release from the flesh and if he gave in a good effort he might in this current cycle. At the same time this is why I am a little bit skeptical since the number of mentally adept are not exactly in majority so the probability they are frauds (deluded) is high.

It does not affect me though whether the story is right or wrong.


Skepticism are healthy...
Your argument make sense given the cultural environment of the boy..

There are other similar circumstances happening within the tradition where the idea of 'reincarnation' is considered 'blasphemous'...
10 Reincarnation Stories That Will Open Your Mind!
https://youtu.be/lwjmJtBphwc

But as they say, experiencing is believing...
There seems to be a growing interest on "Past Life Regression" lately, where one is 'hypnotized' to uncover their 'hidden memory' regarding their own past life.. an example..
A woman recall her past life as a male banker on 1790 england
https://youtu.be/uedrRBG8yBY

MoF have you ever experienced such "session"?

THe discussion will then goes to "Memory"... where does it being stored and how...

A hypothetical question: Let's say the entire "memory" of Adolf Hitler is being 'implanted' into a person living today.. will that qualify that person as "Adolf Hitler" being 'brought back from the dead' ?

The assumption that "memory" are stored only in the brain seems to be false...
Especially given to the fact that NONE of human brain cells survive the entire lifetime of human. (ref: What Are You video above) the maximum lifetime of any cells in human body is 7 years before being 'replaced' by another new cells.

There are also strange occurrences on 'transplanted organ'.. it seems the 'transplanted organ' carries some 'memories' (and also personality) of the donor.

Do Transplanted Organs Carry Memories?
https://youtu.be/GXKxIGn0YZo

DO MAJOR ORGANS HAVE SELF-CONTAINED MEMORIES?
https://youtu.be/HgerGK_-CL4

And I've met in real life, a middle aged "Kuai Lo" (Chinese for foreigner) who received a kidney from a chinese man donor and after 2 years of having the 'chinese kidney' inside his body.. he is able to talk and read chinese fluently... without attending any chinese language lessons or courses... For those who have tried to learn chinese (both oral and the script) you understand how difficult it is.. especially for 'foreigner'..


Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2017, 03:19:58 PM »
Hello Jafar,

I have not been hypnotized during such sessions. But my mind is sufficiently developed that I am cognizant of a past profile of mine which has "haunted" me for virtually my whole adult life until I understood the cause for this 'deja vu' and "deviant" personal tastes and interests. I have some strong character traits interfering with the ones of this body, but the thing is that is the imprint of my spirit and that character is whom shaped me up to who I am now.

The astonishing thing is the more I work on spiritual development, the more displaced I feel as a person and I do not know myself anymore except for this character.

The case got worse when I traveled to and lived in the Middle East for a few years, for my former identity was a person living there so it activated a lot of "feelings of belonging" and I started to recall odd memories in the shape of drives/motivations or tastes whatever to say about it.

Changed so much I do not know myself from before. Simultaneously I sense the old current me, the person I was born as in this cycle, is fading away and I am regaining who I was (who I truly am) I also lived previously in this life in a state of no belonging, confusion and no motivation to much at all.

The point is I could mostly only see people as empty shells before everything unraveled, but at that time I found other at the time "logical" assumptions such as that I was an alien breed on this planet. The difference in mind made me do many deductions and funnily in ways I was not wrong. I mean, I am not a space alien, but my spirit surely makes me alienated and feeling like a different species.

It is sometimes feeling bizarre to me not being able to erase that thought of living amongst animals, but nowadays I have all the necessary explanations for the reason behind it. The main explanation is that the subjects here on Earth are a shell (the body) and a spirit seed - with life depending on the realization of self, so the shells with a shallow spirit are not operating much better than an instinctive animal. They might have a sensation of self awareness, but they live their whole lives enslaved to their instincts which determine their thoughts and their doings. This is when you can actually say "free will" or "free thinking" is dependent on how independently operating an individual has become and how well they have developed the empty/fresh but potent spirit image of God. Majority of people on Earth have only very limited free will and free thinking because much of it is determined for them by the instinct which they cannot resist due to a weak spirit and in general they are blind to how controlled they are. That is what a kafir is, a deluded person, covered and unable to be free. If one removes the barrier they will not be kafir and then they can grow. The biggest barrier is themselves, their body.

Guess you have not watched Star Trek, but in one episode the Klingon Worf has a chat with one of his brethren and the other argue about fighting. Worf responds: "The fight is in here", pointing towards his body and heart. The funny parallel here is that nothing is more challenging but the fight one has with themselves. The point is this was in relationship with what I wrote above about the body and its constantly intruding instinctive impulses. The most honorable and challenging war is to go to war with them, the bodily urges.

Try to never become angry, even when provoked and even when someone insults you or slaps you. It is hard for most. When annoyed it has already gone too far.

The Klingons have a strong drive for violence which is similar to humans but exaggerated in that science-fiction saga. Suppressing it is a worthy life challenge and "hobby". The instinct does tend to romanticize violence and even turn on by it. I see Star Trek as a subtle satire of human behavior where Klingon males and females arouse each other by fighting at the rite of mating. The male is then to subdue the female before proceeding. If he fails = no mating. Fascinating resemblance to humans, on a different level of course. It does not help but to reinforce perceiving humans as animals though.

Anyways, the above reference was meant to show about the fight with oneself, but I drifted away a little.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does "Reincarnation" Make Sense?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2017, 03:25:32 PM »
Quote
And I've met in real life, a middle aged "Kuai Lo" (Chinese for foreigner) who received a kidney from a chinese man donor and after 2 years of having the 'chinese kidney' inside his body.. he is able to talk and read chinese fluently... without attending any chinese language lessons or courses... For those who have tried to learn chinese (both oral and the script) you understand how difficult it is.. especially for 'foreigner'..

Definitely sounds unbelievable, but my motto since teenage years has been "everything is possible, nothing is impossible". And the world is not as it seems, it is just a guise for something else.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net