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The "Salat" according to the Messiah

Started by Adam The Warner, October 19, 2016, 06:27:34 AM

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MysticMonist

Salam,

  This is a great discussion! I've also really enjoyed both your posts good logic and seekingtheprayer in other threads too. I'm glad I found the forum.

   Personally, I love the scriptures of the Torah and Gospels. If time and money weren't issues, I'd want to get PhDs in both Hebrew and Arabic maybe Greek too. I just love scripture, especially in the original language.

   Good logic, you bring a very deep question. Is the Bible the word of God?

   I think the answer depends on what we mean by word of God. The Bible definitely contains some version of God's message. I think all of us would agree on that.

   It might help to ask how or why is the Quran the word of God? Then contrast the Bible.  For me, the immediate difference is the Quran was written in a very short period of time and by only a few collaboratoring authors drawing from the same source of oral teachings. The Torah and the New Testament have many authors, written at different times. The Quran has a unified message, the Bible does not; despite what the evangelicals say. It's definitely not a clear, perfect book :)

  Some more thoughts... even if the Torah and four gospels were perfect they have been heavily interpreted by modern Judiasm (thru the Talmud and so called oral Torah) and Christianity ( thru Paul and the church fathers).  So much so in some places it's not recognizable.

  When Muslims say the Ingel or gospels, I'm curious they ever spell out what they mean. I think they mean the actual teachings of Jesus (PBUH) which unfortunately were not written down immediately and we only have distorted pieces. The gospel of John clearly writes Jesus as divine logos, which is against our understanding of monotheism. My favorite written gospel is the gospel of Thomas that contains only teachings and no claims of divinity. I don't think it's actually gnostic/heretical and if you want I can explain why, but I don't think as Muslims we need to be too concerned with Christian views on orthodoxy.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

24 ?The Lord bless you and keep you;
25 The Lord make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
26 The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.??
-Numbers 6:24-26 (from Torah)

 

good logic

Peace MysticMonist.

Before we carry on this conversation,although important, please let  me say something important and useful to you ,me and all participants.

Everyone says they are searching for the truth. Many are sincerely wanting to find the truth.

That is why it is important to remember FREEDOM OF CHOICE .

We are absolutely free to believe or disbelieve in God. It is God's will that we will  do freely, Qoran: 18:29, 25:57, 73:19, 74:37, 76:29 

God told us in the Qoran that He knows the future and He knows what everyone of us will do, what they will believe, how they behave and  what they commit in this life, because He is God who knows the past, present and future.

However, we are fully free to choose, either God or someone else. Because of this freedom we are responsible for our decision on the day of Judgment. We cannot blame our parents, friends, scholars,or GOD even though He knows the outcome or anyone. We can only blame ourselves.

So argue by what it is best.None of us can change/guide the other. Only GOD can do that.

Because of this kind of freedom God never forces His religion on any body,

[Qoran 10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?

If God was to force people to believe or disbelieve he would not have asked them about their choices and He would never have punished some and rewarded others. God is Most Merciful.

Likewise , believe what you want from Qoran,bible other "scripture", but be true to yourself and check that you search deep for the truth until you have no doubt? Only yourself to blame in the end?

The only benefit here ,in other forums,or with anyone s books/opinions/writings...is to learn from each other, take what is best and respect each other as per Qoran.

May the Lord guide us .

Now allow me to continue to discuss in friendship and respect.

I will give you an example of what I mean by using Qoran as criteria , /comparisons of bible and Qoran:

I find that in some areas Qoran agrees/confirms what  the bible says about Jesus the Messiah.For example;

Jesus himself refused to be called son of God on a number of occasions. In the following verse he rebukes the ones who called him son of God, preferring the title of 'Messiah':

"And devils came out of many, crying out and saying, 'You are the son of God!' And he, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that he was the Messiah" #14 (Luke 4:41).

The refusal of Jesus to be called the son of God, and choosing instead the title of 'son of man' also occurred during the trial at the Sanhedrian. When he was asked if he claimed to be the son of God he replied:

"So you say. But I tell you this: from now you shall see the son of man seated at the right hand of God" #15 (Mathew 26:64)

On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of himself as a prophet:

"A prophet is not without honour except in his home town and his own house" #16 (Mathew 13:57) (Mark 6:4) and (Luke 4:24)

We also read:

"I must journey today, tomorrow and the day following for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem" #17 (Luke 13:33)
"This is the prophet Jesus" #18 (Mathew 21:11)

Jesus also spoke of himself as the messenger of God:

"Whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. Whoever welcomes God's messenger because he is God's messenger will share in his reward." #19 (Mathew 10:40)
"No messenger is greater than the one who sent him" #20 (John 13:16)

That is exactly what Qoran portrays Jesus as:

[Qoran, 5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food. Note how we explain the revelations for them, and note how they still deviate!

[Qoran, 5:116] (On The Day Of Resurrection) God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary,** did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside God?? " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

'Atonement' & 'Original sin'

The concepts of 'Atonement' and 'Original Sin' are equally precarious and not without inconsistencies. To claim that Jesus suffered and was crucified to atone for our sin is philosophically wrong. Not only does this conviction render little sense to the merits of punishment and reward,  but more dangerously, such belief could be regarded as a license to disregard righteousness as long as one believes in Jesus!

The Atonement doctrine contradicts the Old and New Testaments:

Old Testament:

"Also to you O Lord, belong mercy; for you render to each one according to his work." #87 (Psalms 62:12)
"And will he not render to each man according to his deeds?" #88 (Proverbs 24:12)
"The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." #89 (Ezekiel 18:20)

New Testament:

"Each of us shall give an account of himself to God." #90 (Romans 14:12)
"Each one will receive his own reward according to his own labour." #91 (1 Corinthians 3:

Of course this just a small example ,barely a drop from the ocean.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

huruf

We always choose God, because there is nothing outside God.Everything that exists is his creation and endowed with His Wisdom.

Let us remember the fatiha. Guide us to the ascending path the pth of those whom you favoured, not of those on whom you bestowed your wrath or theose who strayed.

Everything is God's, we cannot choose anything that is not God because it does ot exist. But God's wrath is a bad choice for us, and disengaging from reality, going astray is also a bad choice for us. God chose for us his names of beauty, rahman, rahim, wadud, rabb, not his names of wrath or non complacency.

Let us ask Him to show us his Names of beauty, those which we can take blittle by little without being undone by His seer power and might. 

Salaam

MysticMonist

Good logic:

  Just a drop in the ocean is right! I agree that's there are many problems with the doctrine of atonement as preached in many churches. I have particular problems with original sin or in its Protestant total depravity. It's worth noting there are Christian theologians who also criticize these doctrines.

  My basic view of the New Testament is that Jesus (PBUH) was a Jew and never meant to establish a new religion but rather to return the people to the true message of the Torah of monotheism and compassion (mark 12:29-31 The Lord is your God, love God, love neighbor). In His own words he came to fulfill the Law/Torah, not abolish it. The gospels of Mathew, mark, Luke/acts show this Jesus the Jewish Messiah. Jesus also instituted a "new convent" that wasn't salvation through him, but rather invited gentiles in following the true law, not just Jews, and without the priestly authority. The gospel of Thomas also shows a Jesus the messenger or teacher, but not God. The gospel of John and Paul reinterpret Jesus' ministry and teachings with Greek philosophy and preach an incarnate God that by Jewish standards is impossible and completely against the Torah.

  There's a lot more we could get into with Christian theology for sure. If you want to start any threads about specific doctrines or theologians, I'll chip in.

Seeking the prayer:
  You said the gospel and the Torah are "from God." Absolutely they are! The Quran tells us as much. I'm not sure what you mean exactly though. Are you saying that the current texts of the Bible are authoratively the word of God? Perhaps in their original languages (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic)? There is a lot of scholarly work to return to more faithful translations and the RSV and NRSV are pretty good and are unlike the King James or NIV that does make some theological leeway with translation. The Jews of course protect the original Hebrew of the Torah very closely. I don't think mistranslation is that significant these days. Rather it's an issue of intrepration. But still, I wouldn't agree that the texts we have today are pure. They contain many of the opinions of their original authors. Nothing is written by Jesus (PBUH) and I don't think the first five books of Torah were actually written by Moses (PBUH)

Here is an article I found recently that does a good job describing the typical Muslim view of such things:
http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/books-of-allah/

I'll admit that I'm not a theological orthodox Muslim, I really debate if I should even call myself Muslim. You're welcome to judge that for yourself. I am a monist which means I believe there is one God and He is the source of all good and wisdom. The holy books of the Abrahamic faiths hold glimpses of His Truth as to all religions but to a lesser extent. Ultimately I am reminded of my own limited understanding. I am a therapist and I work in a nursing home and I was working with a patient while playing balloon tennis today. I've studied for years how the arm works (muscles, function, diseases that affect it, etc). But my understanding is just a piece. I certainly couldn't build an arm given the raw amino acids. As the Quran says if I understand so little of obvious things, how could I pretend to understand things of which I have no knowledge. May Allah guide me aright.

-Fred


hansolo

O people !

Where does one find online The in injeel in Aramaic ?

Thank you very much in advance

Good health

MysticMonist

Seekingtheprayer,

  We may have to agree to disagree. Let Allah judge between us and may he mercifuly correct me if I am wrong. I have prayed a lot about the New Testament and it's authority or lack of. It's a subject of deep anxiety within me revolving around the question of who Jesus really is.

A quick point: the text of the New Testament where originally written in Greek. Jesus spoke probably in Aramaic, but everything is written in Greek.
https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/in-what-language-was-the-bible-first-written/

Okay, so you say Paul is an apostle? What do you mean by that? What is the "good news" that brings? If you are a Muslim, what do you find that you like about Paul's letters? I don't want to make assumptions about your position.