Author Topic: question from all ?  (Read 5606 times)

HP_TECH

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 07:33:27 PM »
Peace Imran,

Recall these verses brother:

18:74 Then they both set out until when they met a boy, then he killed him. He said, "Have you killed a soul, pure, for other than a soul? Certainly, you have done a thing evil."
18:75 He said, "Did not I say to you that you, never will be able with me (to have) patience?"

18:80 And as for the boy his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them (by) transgression and disbelief.
18:81 So we intended that would change for them their Lord, a better than him (in) purity and nearer (in) affection.

Allah knows that which we do not know. He encompasses Knowledge itself. His Wisdom and Justice is beyond our comprehension. He Knows what is before us and what is behind us. Allah encompasses the disbelievers. That is why that boy was killed.
It is same for the innumerable children in Noah's time when the flood swept away the disbelievers or with Aad, or Thamud, or Madyian or the two overturned cities of Lot or Pharaohs and his followers.

It does not matter if man is 2 or 100. Allah encompasses them.


Do you know of Qarun he was from the people of Moses but he disbelieved and was a corruptor.
The Old Testament identifies him as Korah. He along with those who followed him wear swallowed up by the earth.

Numbers 16

Moses Separates the People
23And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 24Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

25And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. 26And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. 27So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. 28And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 29If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. 30But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

The Earth Swallows Up Korah
31And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Allah Knows Best what is in the breasts of men!

Furthermore look at Noah's prayer:

71:26 And said Nuh, "My Lord! (Do) not leave on the earth any (of) the disbelievers (as) an inhabitant.
71:27 Indeed, You, if You leave them they will mislead Your slaves and not they will beget except a wicked, a disbeliever.

Perhaps I have not grasped its meaning entirely but this gives me the impression that most disbelievers will mislead their children and raise disbelievers (although not all) and God knows every possibility and the future and the past and beyond.

I hope my Lord forgives me if I say anything wrong or inappropriate but I believe what I am trying to demonstrate by citing these Ayaats is that Allah knows who's going to fail and who's going to pass. So it does not matter when He chooses to take them.

Praise be to God
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Timotheus

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 852
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 08:05:51 PM »
peace timothes,

actually regarding this particular issue i did not find anything in scripture so we can solve it by reasoning and logics, but again what i see difficult for myself also is it unfair with us who stuck in this loop of life test.. compared to those who died in their early age and they will not have to answer anything, its same like if somebody get absent from examination hall and get promoted to next level withour giving exam..

and the one who give exam he learn struggle whole year for that exam and he/she still not sure he get pass or fail..

thats what i actually wanted to ask from my brothers and sisters here..

peace
God bless you

Peace, and God bless you

yea i understand that, we also should remember that God says he raises those who strive to greater degrees. paradise is not just in or out, there are various levels, in my understanding, also the verse 'surely you will embark on level on level' (84:19)

If we strive for our whole lives, and give God good service, and follow his path, even die in His cause, He will surely reward us with the best.

Peace be with you
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

imrankhawaja

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4021
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 10:47:28 PM »
When you ask "where is the test" do you mean is the test fair?  Why don't kids
go to hell?  You must reflect on the test and the law of cause and effect.  Let's take
for example, someone experiences the death of a child, in such a case who is being tested,
the child, no, it is the one who experiences the event.  The test has many aspects and some
intertwine.  Everyone is not tested, there are things we are tested by.  Allah knows best.

2/155  And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of
wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

25/20 And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food
and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others;
will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing.

                       

                                   :peace:

peace hawk,

the theory you provide is also debateable,  at first place let us consider everybody will not face test. thats fine,,

but in the light of very next verse. you posted we will surely test you... it applies to all, even messengers, they were not escaped from tests, even the the king of pop(michal jackson) the person who was rich in fame, money, love from everybody , he was unsatisfied from his life,

in his personal saying he was expressing his feelings ,i got everyything whatever a person can wish,he really touch the boundries of love from people , audience get unconscious while looking his one glimpse,but still he was unsatisfied and despite of all his wealth he could not fight with cancer.. basically he was missing something.. anyway its going out of topic,

what i want to say everybody must encounter test of life , in shape of money , kids, loss, fear or some worldy problems so the kids who dies its definately a test for parents.

but again the kid , he is quite lucky he have nothing to fear , thats what our main point in all there...

on what grounds he willl get judged, bad deeds = hell , good deeds= paradise..  but no deeds= ?

as we know if somebody want to enter in jail without crime, entry not allowed,
if somebody want to enter in park without buying a ticket entery not allowed..

rules are rules?

criteria for going to paradise or hell is not there to apply for kids, insane, mentally unstable person...?

whats their status ?

God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4021
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 11:00:09 PM »
peace hp tech 

my dear brother our subject here is something else, i fully understand there is always a master plan behind God wisdom and no body know it apart from God.. its another matter.. the person who killed the boy while travelling is the plan of God and logically if we think on this angle it was a action he done for the parents who are loyal to God...

but when we come on the kid point of view then why dnt God kill all the disbelievers at the first instant, like pharaoh.? and what will be the status of that kid hereafter... as we know when a teacher teach a lesson in class he know what student will pass and fail but for making them satisfied they take exam .. and show the result to students,,if they dnt take the exam and pass and fail everybody the students can say its unfair...

in the case of that kid, God know he is one of the wicked  so with respect to that ,will God put him in hell or heaven...?
if heaven then on what grounds if hell again what grounds ,, he did not qualify for judgement?

why favor to that kid and not to other disbelievers?


our topic is what is the status of people who are with us but are exempt from test?

are we are just getting it all wrong? or still there is something else we miss in all of our understanding... ? or another missing theory what is not captured by our minds yet?


God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4021
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 11:08:20 PM »


yea i understand that, we also should remember that God says he raises those who strive to greater degrees. paradise is not just in or out, there are various levels, in my understanding, also the verse 'surely you will embark on level on level' (84:19)


peace brother ,

actually no doubt about it there will be levels there and everybody will get reward according to the level of good deeds he done.. very logical,,

but with respect to our subject topic , this is irrelevant to the catagory which i pointed out..

we cannnot assign level of heaven or hell to somebody who is exempt from judgement,

aww i have suddenly an idea come in my mind from traditional understanding, they claim there is another place within heaven and hell for the people who are good but are non muslims, strange but the logical fallacy of traditions sometimes not fit.. niether quran told us any third place apart from heaven an hell.. or may b the place exist but God did not told us all the secrets of life and hereafter

peace and God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

hanslan

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 227
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2016, 11:16:33 PM »
peace hp tech 

my dear brother our subject here is something else, i fully understand there is always a master plan behind God wisdom and no body know it apart from God.. its another matter.. the person who killed the boy while travelling is the plan of God and logically if we think on this angle it was a action he done for the parents who are loyal to God...

but when we come on the kid point of view then why dnt God kill all the disbelievers at the first instant, like pharaoh.? and what will be the status of that kid hereafter... as we know when a teacher teach a lesson in class he know what student will pass and fail but for making them satisfied they take exam .. and show the result to students,,if they dnt take the exam and pass and fail everybody the students can say its unfair...

in the case of that kid, God know he is one of the wicked  so with respect to that ,will God put him in hell or heaven...?
if heaven then on what grounds if hell again what grounds ,, he did not qualify for judgement?

why favor to that kid and not to other disbelievers?


our topic is what is the status of people who are with us but are exempt from test?

are we are just getting it all wrong? or still there is something else we miss in all of our understanding... ? or another missing theory what is not captured by our minds yet?


God bless you

Salam. What if that kid does not exist or is actually something else (need to read Harun Yahya's book on the matrix), existence is only in the mind to test us.  The test is on the individual and has no relation to others despite others being present, i.e. your action, inaction, perception, emotions are yours alone although you may feel that it impacts others but it may be just your perception of existence.  You can't and don't have influence on others passing or failing the test, if you do then everyone will start bargaining But there is nothing to bargain.

imrankhawaja

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4021
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2016, 11:37:03 PM »
Salam. What if that kid does not exist or is actually something else (need to read Harun Yahya's book on the matrix), existence is only in the mind to test us.  The test is on the individual and has no relation to others despite others being present, i.e. your action, inaction, perception, emotions are yours alone although you may feel that it impacts others but it may be just your perception of existence.  You can't and don't have influence on others passing or failing the test, if you do then everyone will start bargaining But there is nothing to bargain.

 :bravo: its also a theory but its conspricy theory ,,,lol just kidding mate...

God bless you..
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6345
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2016, 12:28:20 AM »
So what if hey are not tested as we understand he test or even tested at all. The Qur'an is not read by nor understood by babies, so when the Qur'an tells us that we are tested , we are tested but the babies? The Qur'an is not lying to us. We are being tested. So the babies or those who cannot know of tests will get a free pass for paradise? Alhamdulillah, why not? e do not loose anything if heyget a free pass.

Again. Alhemdulillah, I think we would all want them to enter Paradise, even if hey have not been tested.

God makes many existences, many we may not know about, why not one innocent that gets to next stage innocent.

Salaam

Timotheus

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 852
  • Gender: Male
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2016, 01:42:33 AM »
peace brother ,

actually no doubt about it there will be levels there and everybody will get reward according to the level of good deeds he done.. very logical,,

but with respect to our subject topic , this is irrelevant to the catagory which i pointed out..

we cannnot assign level of heaven or hell to somebody who is exempt from judgement,

aww i have suddenly an idea come in my mind from traditional understanding, they claim there is another place within heaven and hell for the people who are good but are non muslims, strange but the logical fallacy of traditions sometimes not fit.. niether quran told us any third place apart from heaven an hell.. or may b the place exist but God did not told us all the secrets of life and hereafter

peace and God bless you

peace bro,

it seems clear from the quran that noone is exempt from recompense, in saying that though, with our topic i think thwt God will have mercy on innocent children, as he says he knows best who is worthy of hell, also in the quran there is al-Araf, prehaps they go there, realy none of us know or need to know, unless God has willed, i certainly would not go seeking explanations from misguided traditions.

peace
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2234
Re: question from all ?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2016, 02:21:52 AM »
Peace imrankhawaja, Michael Jackson  :o how did he get in it?   
You say the next verse says all will be tested, so what is the test for a baby,
the mentally ill, small children?   :brickwall:



               O0
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden