Author Topic: question from all ?  (Read 5605 times)

imrankhawaja

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question from all ?
« on: August 02, 2016, 01:54:05 PM »
peace everybody.

i have a question stuck in my mind from last couple of days if somebody have better unnderstanding they can share here with logic and reasoning.

as we know this life is test for all of us. but what will happen to the kids who get died in their young age or at their birth including the kids of non muslims..? where is the test for them. and how will they rewarded?

traditional understanding regarding the kids of non muslims,who died early is as follow..
they will serve all beleivers in the paradise but due to some points its quite illogical

1 i can feel a smell of slavery here .. 2 and they can object from God we will not gonna serve becoz we need same status as rest of the people have..

but what i want to ask they did not took a test at first place , it seems they are lucky not to sit in exam and still  get promote to next level/life , is it fair with rest of us ... as we know spending life as a beleiver is not really an easy task. so are they lucky or there is some other theory behind all the kids who died in young age..?

God bless you all




SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

good logic

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2016, 02:44:03 PM »
Peace imran.

GOD tries each individual according to His knowledge.
 Those souls that GOD has given a very short interim to ( for a very good reason, I trust GOD) are mentioned here( people of Aaraaf):
Here is what Qoran says about the two categories and about the people of "Aaraf":
7:40
Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَاستَكبَروا عَنها لا تُفَتَّحُ لَهُم أَبوٰبُ السَّماءِ وَلا يَدخُلونَ الجَنَّةَ حَتّىٰ يَلِجَ الجَمَلُ فى سَمِّ الخِياطِ وَكَذٰلِكَ نَجزِى المُجرِمينَ
7:41
They have incurred Hell as an abode; they will have barriers above them. We thus requite the transgressors.
لَهُم مِن جَهَنَّمَ مِهادٌ وَمِن فَوقِهِم غَواشٍ وَكَذٰلِكَ نَجزِى الظّٰلِمينَ
7:42
As for those who believe and lead a righteous life - we never burden any soul beyond its means - these will be the dwellers of Paradise. They abide in it forever.
وَالَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَعَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ لا نُكَلِّفُ نَفسًا إِلّا وُسعَها أُولٰئِكَ أَصحٰبُ الجَنَّةِ هُم فيها خٰلِدونَ
7:43
We will remove all jealousy from their hearts. Rivers will flow beneath them, and they will say, "God be praised for guiding us. We could not possibly be guided, if it were not that God has guided us. The messengers of our Lord did bring the truth." They will be called: "This is your Paradise. You have inherited it, in return for your works."
وَنَزَعنا ما فى صُدورِهِم مِن غِلٍّ تَجرى مِن تَحتِهِمُ الأَنهٰرُ وَقالُوا الحَمدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذى هَدىٰنا لِهٰذا وَما كُنّا لِنَهتَدِىَ لَولا أَن هَدىٰنَا اللَّهُ لَقَد جاءَت رُسُلُ رَبِّنا بِالحَقِّ وَنودوا أَن تِلكُمُ الجَنَّةُ أورِثتُموها بِما كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ
7:44
The dwellers of Paradise will call the dwellers of Hell: "We have found our Lord's promise to be the truth, have you found your Lord's promise to be the truth?" They will say, "Yes." An announcer between them will announce: "God's condemnation has befallen the transgressors;
وَنادىٰ أَصحٰبُ الجَنَّةِ أَصحٰبَ النّارِ أَن قَد وَجَدنا ما وَعَدَنا رَبُّنا حَقًّا فَهَل وَجَدتُم ما وَعَدَ رَبُّكُم حَقًّا قالوا نَعَم فَأَذَّنَ مُؤَذِّنٌ بَينَهُم أَن لَعنَةُ اللَّهِ عَلَى الظّٰلِمينَ
7:45
"who repel from the path of God, and strive to make it crooked, and, with regard to the Hereafter, they are disbelievers."
الَّذينَ يَصُدّونَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ وَيَبغونَها عِوَجًا وَهُم بِالـٔاخِرَةِ كٰفِرونَ
7:46
A barrier separates them, while the Aaraf is occupied by people who recognize each side by their looks. They will call the dwellers of Paradise: "Peace be upon you." They did not enter (Paradise) through wishful thinking.
وَبَينَهُما حِجابٌ وَعَلَى الأَعرٰفِ رِجالٌ يَعرِفونَ كُلًّا بِسيمىٰهُم وَنادَوا أَصحٰبَ الجَنَّةِ أَن سَلٰمٌ عَلَيكُم لَم يَدخُلوها وَهُم يَطمَعونَ
7:47
When they turn their eyes towards the dwellers of Hell, they will say, "Our Lord, do not put us with these wicked people."
وَإِذا صُرِفَت أَبصٰرُهُم تِلقاءَ أَصحٰبِ النّارِ قالوا رَبَّنا لا تَجعَلنا مَعَ القَومِ الظّٰلِمينَ
7:48
The dwellers of the Aaraf will call on people they recognize by their looks, saying, "Your great numbers did not avail you in any way, nor did your arrogance.
وَنادىٰ أَصحٰبُ الأَعرٰفِ رِجالًا يَعرِفونَهُم بِسيمىٰهُم قالوا ما أَغنىٰ عَنكُم جَمعُكُم وَما كُنتُم تَستَكبِرونَ
7:49
"Are those the people you swore that God will never touch them with mercy?" (The people in the Aaraf will then be told,) "Enter Paradise; you have nothing to fear, nor will you grieve."
أَهٰؤُلاءِ الَّذينَ أَقسَمتُم لا يَنالُهُمُ اللَّهُ بِرَحمَةٍ ادخُلُوا الجَنَّةَ لا خَوفٌ عَلَيكُم وَلا أَنتُم تَحزَنونَ

Trust in GOD completely, His justice will prevail.
Do not grieve for the people of the Aaraf?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:” I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.”

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Man of Faith

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2016, 02:54:36 PM »
Imran,

Reincarnation is a true concept and youngsters that die come again. So their test is not over and they do not go straight to "heaven" for nothing accomplished spiritually. They will return in the flesh for further testing, just as other failures who do not pass the test in their life cycle and get released from attachment to the bodily and become managers (angels). It is a recurring fate unless one can actually see through the imposed delusion and find themselves a working remedy to their present situation (God was so kind to list the most prominent stumbling blocks by the "Ten Commandments") in order to be saved. It is recommended to learn what Satan really is.

If one learns that their own body is their main enemy/problem it will be much easier to find a way out. What autonomously drives the body is the instinct (Satan) and the more separation from it one can get with their spirit the better.

Philosophical overview of the 'Ten Directives' (commandments):

Hierarchical tendency = Instinctive - Remedy strengthen the personal being
Materialistic desire = Instinctive - Remedy detachment from materials
Conjecture and superstition = Instinct - Remedy remember these words (Rabb's words)
(Pre)Occupation (of mind) = Instinctive - Remedy periodical contemplation (Sabbath)
Selfishness = Instinctive - Remedy treat everyone like it was yourself and get empathy
Sexual drive = Instinctive - Remedy avoid sexual stimulation (e.g. no peeking at bodies of attraction)
Emotionality = Instinctive - Remedy empathy and self-confidence/faith in self
Greed = Instinctive - Remedy avoid exploitation of others and a chase for competition
Exaggeration/lying tendency = Instinct - Remedy firm on honesty
Jealousy = Instinct - Remedy learn to appreciate what you have and question your own needs and do not fall towards competition

Obviously it is important to be aware that each one is an instinct and the instinct (Satan) is your main problem. If each person reflected more on the directives' application and meaning than reinforcing their strictness to invent a lot of "do nots" never authored by God then they would yield better results with themselves and hopefully avoid reincarnation.

It would also help if people would realize they have been beguiled by religious doctrines.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2016, 03:13:31 PM »
peace GL.

my brother, i also know these verses, and i also trust on God justice..

but my question is in bold, how will somebody judged without task?  there are two factors either the souls are lucky or there is another theory behind this.. ?

God bless you too
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 03:16:06 PM »
peace MOF,

so according to ur understanding the kids who died get birth again untill they will complete the test of this life..

its also found in hinndu scriptures something simlar that they have to come for seven janam/births in this life then the travel to another dimenshn start.. or i get  you wrong there..?

SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

hawk99

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2016, 05:10:18 PM »
peace everybody.

i have a question stuck in my mind from last couple of days if somebody have better unnderstanding they can share here with logic and reasoning.

as we know this life is test for all of us. but what will happen to the kids who get died in their young age or at their birth including the kids of non muslims..? where is the test for them. and how will they rewarded?

traditional understanding regarding the kids of non muslims,who died early is as follow..
they will serve all beleivers in the paradise but due to some points its quite illogical

1 i can feel a smell of slavery here .. 2 and they can object from God we will not gonna serve becoz we need same status as rest of the people have..

but what i want to ask they did not took a test at first place , it seems they are lucky not to sit in exam and still  get promote to next level/life , is it fair with rest of us ... as we know spending life as a beleiver is not really an easy task. so are they lucky or there is some other theory behind all the kids who died in young age..?

God bless you all


Peace imrankhawaja not only children are exempt from judgment but also the mentally ill,
(depending when the illness takes place) and young folks who have not reached the age of responsibility. 


Allah knows best


                                      8)
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Timotheus

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2016, 05:39:54 PM »
peace everybody.

i have a question stuck in my mind from last couple of days if somebody have better unnderstanding they can share here with logic and reasoning.

as we know this life is test for all of us. but what will happen to the kids who get died in their young age or at their birth including the kids of non muslims..? where is the test for them. and how will they rewarded?

traditional understanding regarding the kids of non muslims,who died early is as follow..
they will serve all beleivers in the paradise but due to some points its quite illogical

1 i can feel a smell of slavery here .. 2 and they can object from God we will not gonna serve becoz we need same status as rest of the people have..

but what i want to ask they did not took a test at first place , it seems they are lucky not to sit in exam and still  get promote to next level/life , is it fair with rest of us ... as we know spending life as a beleiver is not really an easy task. so are they lucky or there is some other theory behind all the kids who died in young age..?

God bless you all

Peace be with you,

I dont realy know, i often wonder this myself, i think God knows best those who deserve paradise, often in the gospel accounts, jesus mentions that 'none will enter the kingdom of heaven except as a little child', or in my understanding, by being pure, and not seeking desires etc.

in terms of is it fair? well i see the service i do as making up for all my sin, so if i think of my account, i think, i dont know if i would even break even. but i hope God gives me a good reward, the point i was making is that, children have alot less sin, they dont need to be purified from it as much, as oppossed to us adults. I realize God wipes our sin, if He so willed, i dont mean we have to struggle and strive all our lives trying to break even with our account, but rather just to purify ourselves from the results of that sin in our own souls, although, theese two are surely very closely related.

God knows best anyway, Prehaps its one of those situations where if we knew it would greive us, i just rememberd, alhamdullilah, that God tells us not to ask about things that might greive us, as people before us asked those kinds of questions, and rejected because of the answers

prehaps it is one of those cases, I dont know. God knows. Praise be to Him, we will find out one day.

Peace be with you, and Gods mercy and blessings.
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 05:52:49 PM »
Peace imrankhawaja not only children are exempt from judgment but also the mentally ill,
(depending when the illness takes place) and young folks who have not reached the age of responsibility. 


Allah knows best


                                      8)

peace hawk

i agree with your statement but you did not answer what i ask, if u want include all of them as well along with kids ..i have no issue but again where is the test  then?

peace.
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 05:57:02 PM »
Peace be with you,

I dont realy know, i often wonder this myself, i think God knows best those who deserve paradise, often in the gospel accounts, jesus mentions that 'none will enter the kingdom of heaven except as a little child', or in my understanding, by being pure, and not seeking desires etc.

in terms of is it fair? well i see the service i do as making up for all my sin, so if i think of my account, i think, i dont know if i would even break even. but i hope God gives me a good reward, the point i was making is that, children have alot less sin, they dont need to be purified from it as much, as oppossed to us adults. I realize God wipes our sin, if He so willed, i dont mean we have to struggle and strive all our lives trying to break even with our account, but rather just to purify ourselves from the results of that sin in our own souls, although, theese two are surely very closely related.

God knows best anyway, Prehaps its one of those situations where if we knew it would greive us, i just rememberd, alhamdullilah, that God tells us not to ask about things that might greive us, as people before us asked those kinds of questions, and rejected because of the answers

prehaps it is one of those cases, I dont know. God knows. Praise be to Him, we will find out one day.

Peace be with you, and Gods mercy and blessings.
peace timothes,

actually regarding this particular issue i did not find anything in scripture so we can solve it by reasoning and logics, but again what i see difficult for myself also is it unfair with us who stuck in this loop of life test.. compared to those who died in their early age and they will not have to answer anything, its same like if somebody get absent from examination hall and get promoted to next level withour giving exam..

and the one who give exam he learn struggle whole year for that exam and he/she still not sure he get pass or fail..

thats what i actually wanted to ask from my brothers and sisters here..

peace
God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

hawk99

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 06:47:10 PM »
peace hawk

i agree with your statement but you did not answer what i ask, if u want include all of them as well along with kids ..i have no issue but again where is the test  then?

peace.

When you ask "where is the test" do you mean is the test fair?  Why don't kids
go to hell?  You must reflect on the test and the law of cause and effect.  Let's take
for example, someone experiences the death of a child, in such a case who is being tested,
the child, no, it is the one who experiences the event.  The test has many aspects and some
intertwine.  Everyone is not tested, there are things we are tested by.  Allah knows best.

2/155  And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of
wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

25/20 And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food
and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others;
will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing.

                       

                                   :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

HP_TECH

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 07:33:27 PM »
Peace Imran,

Recall these verses brother:

18:74 Then they both set out until when they met a boy, then he killed him. He said, "Have you killed a soul, pure, for other than a soul? Certainly, you have done a thing evil."
18:75 He said, "Did not I say to you that you, never will be able with me (to have) patience?"

18:80 And as for the boy his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them (by) transgression and disbelief.
18:81 So we intended that would change for them their Lord, a better than him (in) purity and nearer (in) affection.

Allah knows that which we do not know. He encompasses Knowledge itself. His Wisdom and Justice is beyond our comprehension. He Knows what is before us and what is behind us. Allah encompasses the disbelievers. That is why that boy was killed.
It is same for the innumerable children in Noah's time when the flood swept away the disbelievers or with Aad, or Thamud, or Madyian or the two overturned cities of Lot or Pharaohs and his followers.

It does not matter if man is 2 or 100. Allah encompasses them.


Do you know of Qarun he was from the people of Moses but he disbelieved and was a corruptor.
The Old Testament identifies him as Korah. He along with those who followed him wear swallowed up by the earth.

Numbers 16

Moses Separates the People
23And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 24Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

25And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. 26And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. 27So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. 28And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 29If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. 30But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

The Earth Swallows Up Korah
31And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Allah Knows Best what is in the breasts of men!

Furthermore look at Noah's prayer:

71:26 And said Nuh, "My Lord! (Do) not leave on the earth any (of) the disbelievers (as) an inhabitant.
71:27 Indeed, You, if You leave them they will mislead Your slaves and not they will beget except a wicked, a disbeliever.

Perhaps I have not grasped its meaning entirely but this gives me the impression that most disbelievers will mislead their children and raise disbelievers (although not all) and God knows every possibility and the future and the past and beyond.

I hope my Lord forgives me if I say anything wrong or inappropriate but I believe what I am trying to demonstrate by citing these Ayaats is that Allah knows who's going to fail and who's going to pass. So it does not matter when He chooses to take them.

Praise be to God
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Timotheus

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 08:05:51 PM »
peace timothes,

actually regarding this particular issue i did not find anything in scripture so we can solve it by reasoning and logics, but again what i see difficult for myself also is it unfair with us who stuck in this loop of life test.. compared to those who died in their early age and they will not have to answer anything, its same like if somebody get absent from examination hall and get promoted to next level withour giving exam..

and the one who give exam he learn struggle whole year for that exam and he/she still not sure he get pass or fail..

thats what i actually wanted to ask from my brothers and sisters here..

peace
God bless you

Peace, and God bless you

yea i understand that, we also should remember that God says he raises those who strive to greater degrees. paradise is not just in or out, there are various levels, in my understanding, also the verse 'surely you will embark on level on level' (84:19)

If we strive for our whole lives, and give God good service, and follow his path, even die in His cause, He will surely reward us with the best.

Peace be with you
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 10:47:28 PM »
When you ask "where is the test" do you mean is the test fair?  Why don't kids
go to hell?  You must reflect on the test and the law of cause and effect.  Let's take
for example, someone experiences the death of a child, in such a case who is being tested,
the child, no, it is the one who experiences the event.  The test has many aspects and some
intertwine.  Everyone is not tested, there are things we are tested by.  Allah knows best.

2/155  And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of
wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

25/20 And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food
and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others;
will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing.

                       

                                   :peace:

peace hawk,

the theory you provide is also debateable,  at first place let us consider everybody will not face test. thats fine,,

but in the light of very next verse. you posted we will surely test you... it applies to all, even messengers, they were not escaped from tests, even the the king of pop(michal jackson) the person who was rich in fame, money, love from everybody , he was unsatisfied from his life,

in his personal saying he was expressing his feelings ,i got everyything whatever a person can wish,he really touch the boundries of love from people , audience get unconscious while looking his one glimpse,but still he was unsatisfied and despite of all his wealth he could not fight with cancer.. basically he was missing something.. anyway its going out of topic,

what i want to say everybody must encounter test of life , in shape of money , kids, loss, fear or some worldy problems so the kids who dies its definately a test for parents.

but again the kid , he is quite lucky he have nothing to fear , thats what our main point in all there...

on what grounds he willl get judged, bad deeds = hell , good deeds= paradise..  but no deeds= ?

as we know if somebody want to enter in jail without crime, entry not allowed,
if somebody want to enter in park without buying a ticket entery not allowed..

rules are rules?

criteria for going to paradise or hell is not there to apply for kids, insane, mentally unstable person...?

whats their status ?

God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 11:00:09 PM »
peace hp tech 

my dear brother our subject here is something else, i fully understand there is always a master plan behind God wisdom and no body know it apart from God.. its another matter.. the person who killed the boy while travelling is the plan of God and logically if we think on this angle it was a action he done for the parents who are loyal to God...

but when we come on the kid point of view then why dnt God kill all the disbelievers at the first instant, like pharaoh.? and what will be the status of that kid hereafter... as we know when a teacher teach a lesson in class he know what student will pass and fail but for making them satisfied they take exam .. and show the result to students,,if they dnt take the exam and pass and fail everybody the students can say its unfair...

in the case of that kid, God know he is one of the wicked  so with respect to that ,will God put him in hell or heaven...?
if heaven then on what grounds if hell again what grounds ,, he did not qualify for judgement?

why favor to that kid and not to other disbelievers?


our topic is what is the status of people who are with us but are exempt from test?

are we are just getting it all wrong? or still there is something else we miss in all of our understanding... ? or another missing theory what is not captured by our minds yet?


God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 11:08:20 PM »


yea i understand that, we also should remember that God says he raises those who strive to greater degrees. paradise is not just in or out, there are various levels, in my understanding, also the verse 'surely you will embark on level on level' (84:19)


peace brother ,

actually no doubt about it there will be levels there and everybody will get reward according to the level of good deeds he done.. very logical,,

but with respect to our subject topic , this is irrelevant to the catagory which i pointed out..

we cannnot assign level of heaven or hell to somebody who is exempt from judgement,

aww i have suddenly an idea come in my mind from traditional understanding, they claim there is another place within heaven and hell for the people who are good but are non muslims, strange but the logical fallacy of traditions sometimes not fit.. niether quran told us any third place apart from heaven an hell.. or may b the place exist but God did not told us all the secrets of life and hereafter

peace and God bless you
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

hanslan

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2016, 11:16:33 PM »
peace hp tech 

my dear brother our subject here is something else, i fully understand there is always a master plan behind God wisdom and no body know it apart from God.. its another matter.. the person who killed the boy while travelling is the plan of God and logically if we think on this angle it was a action he done for the parents who are loyal to God...

but when we come on the kid point of view then why dnt God kill all the disbelievers at the first instant, like pharaoh.? and what will be the status of that kid hereafter... as we know when a teacher teach a lesson in class he know what student will pass and fail but for making them satisfied they take exam .. and show the result to students,,if they dnt take the exam and pass and fail everybody the students can say its unfair...

in the case of that kid, God know he is one of the wicked  so with respect to that ,will God put him in hell or heaven...?
if heaven then on what grounds if hell again what grounds ,, he did not qualify for judgement?

why favor to that kid and not to other disbelievers?


our topic is what is the status of people who are with us but are exempt from test?

are we are just getting it all wrong? or still there is something else we miss in all of our understanding... ? or another missing theory what is not captured by our minds yet?


God bless you

Salam. What if that kid does not exist or is actually something else (need to read Harun Yahya's book on the matrix), existence is only in the mind to test us.  The test is on the individual and has no relation to others despite others being present, i.e. your action, inaction, perception, emotions are yours alone although you may feel that it impacts others but it may be just your perception of existence.  You can't and don't have influence on others passing or failing the test, if you do then everyone will start bargaining But there is nothing to bargain.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2016, 11:37:03 PM »
Salam. What if that kid does not exist or is actually something else (need to read Harun Yahya's book on the matrix), existence is only in the mind to test us.  The test is on the individual and has no relation to others despite others being present, i.e. your action, inaction, perception, emotions are yours alone although you may feel that it impacts others but it may be just your perception of existence.  You can't and don't have influence on others passing or failing the test, if you do then everyone will start bargaining But there is nothing to bargain.

 :bravo: its also a theory but its conspricy theory ,,,lol just kidding mate...

God bless you..
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

huruf

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2016, 12:28:20 AM »
So what if hey are not tested as we understand he test or even tested at all. The Qur'an is not read by nor understood by babies, so when the Qur'an tells us that we are tested , we are tested but the babies? The Qur'an is not lying to us. We are being tested. So the babies or those who cannot know of tests will get a free pass for paradise? Alhamdulillah, why not? e do not loose anything if heyget a free pass.

Again. Alhemdulillah, I think we would all want them to enter Paradise, even if hey have not been tested.

God makes many existences, many we may not know about, why not one innocent that gets to next stage innocent.

Salaam

Timotheus

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2016, 01:42:33 AM »
peace brother ,

actually no doubt about it there will be levels there and everybody will get reward according to the level of good deeds he done.. very logical,,

but with respect to our subject topic , this is irrelevant to the catagory which i pointed out..

we cannnot assign level of heaven or hell to somebody who is exempt from judgement,

aww i have suddenly an idea come in my mind from traditional understanding, they claim there is another place within heaven and hell for the people who are good but are non muslims, strange but the logical fallacy of traditions sometimes not fit.. niether quran told us any third place apart from heaven an hell.. or may b the place exist but God did not told us all the secrets of life and hereafter

peace and God bless you

peace bro,

it seems clear from the quran that noone is exempt from recompense, in saying that though, with our topic i think thwt God will have mercy on innocent children, as he says he knows best who is worthy of hell, also in the quran there is al-Araf, prehaps they go there, realy none of us know or need to know, unless God has willed, i certainly would not go seeking explanations from misguided traditions.

peace
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Seek His guidance, the only guidance
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hawk99

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2016, 02:21:52 AM »
Peace imrankhawaja, Michael Jackson  :o how did he get in it?   
You say the next verse says all will be tested, so what is the test for a baby,
the mentally ill, small children?   :brickwall:



               O0
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good logic

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2016, 02:49:53 AM »
Peace imran.

Let us reason your thread by giving examples:

1- Is the one tested in 1990 the same as the one tested in 1090?

2-  is the one tested in America the same as the one tested in Syria say  in 2012 or example?

3- What about the one who has not got a clue he/she is being tested? like say a very rich person who has always been comfortable and spent all their life in "luxury" protected by family and systems?

4- Is it fair to test different generations in very different circumstances?

5- Is it fair to be tested in a village that has been attacked( say in the 1870 s) by some western savages and most got killed even the one who has just moved there new?

In general if people cannot choose when and where they are born is it fair to be tested at all?

 You could argue all day long that some are getting tested lightly /less harsh than others.
And ,like in your example you could argue some are not being tested at all!!!

Now, You do not remember our "past" before we were humans. Is it to do with that part?
Again, GOD assigns the souls and gives them live at a certain place on earth and in a certain time,why?

What about animals/plants/other creations? Is this fair on them? Why are they not being tested? Is their purpose in life fair?

GOD gives us the explanation we need for our salvation. When you start to realise and understand about GOD and your purpose here, you start taking the test or do you? So when do some realise this is a test?

When we start to know about GOD, then study His message I believe the test starts for sure. But this is my understanding.
Then when you realise you are being tested,  you try your best to pass for yourself, GOD does what He wants with "others".
 I know I can trust GOD and I know certain answers I will have to be patient about or wait until I return to Him to know for certain.

Everything is done according to GOD s perfect knowledge of every soul in every creation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2016, 10:05:09 AM »
Peace imrankhawaja, Michael Jackson  :o how did he get in it?   
You say the next verse says all will be tested, so what is the test for a baby,
the mentally ill, small children?   :brickwall:



               O0

peace

brother instead of giving the reason you bring same thing... again.. yeh i am asking everybody get tested and rewarded.. right.. i have no issue

but question is not for them who get tested.. question is for them who did not give a test and people claim they will get rewarded.. are we missing something.. ?

why should we put ourself in the test when we know some of them or most of them will get  failed..?

in this case the people like kids or mentallly instable. are they lucky enough from us . they did not lose anything..?

what is the criteria for judging the soul which is not undergone for test...?

peace

SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2016, 10:31:46 AM »
Peace imran.

Let us reason your thread by giving examples:

1- Is the one tested in 1990 the same as the one tested in 1090?

2-  is the one tested in America the same as the one tested in Syria say  in 2012 or example?

3- What about the one who has not got a clue he/she is being tested? like say a very rich person who has always been comfortable and spent all their life in "luxury" protected by family and systems?

4- Is it fair to test different generations in very different circumstances?

5- Is it fair to be tested in a village that has been attacked( say in the 1870 s) by some western savages and most got killed even the one who has just moved there new?

In general if people cannot choose when and where they are born is it fair to be tested at all?

 You could argue all day long that some are getting tested lightly /less harsh than others.
And ,like in your example you could argue some are not being tested at all!!!

Now, You do not remember our "past" before we were humans. Is it to do with that part?
Again, GOD assigns the souls and gives them live at a certain place on earth and in a certain time,why?

What about animals/plants/other creations? Is this fair on them? Why are they not being tested? Is their purpose in life fair?

GOD gives us the explanation we need for our salvation. When you start to realise and understand about GOD and your purpose here, you start taking the test or do you? So when do some realise this is a test?

When we start to know about GOD, then study His message I believe the test starts for sure. But this is my understanding.
Then when you realise you are being tested,  you try your best to pass for yourself, GOD does what He wants with "others".
 I know I can trust GOD and I know certain answers I will have to be patient about or wait until I return to Him to know for certain.

Everything is done according to GOD s perfect knowledge of every soul in every creation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace GL ,

i think the verse regarding test.. and purpose of life you link with those who qualified as test.. let make it simple..

before asking from us the "trust" God ask from everything and they refuse to undertake that test becoz it was risky so they like to live in a state where they are.. the creation like mountain, tree stars, already refused to undegoing on test..

we human accept it. becoz we were transgressing and ignorant...

again out topic is the one who are exempted from test again and again i m repeating my question..lol

let me ask you something , what is more easy to take a test and risk ourself or getting reward by taking test and by chance or luck you dnt have to give that test?

at this moment everybody can think why should we risk ourself if we know the test was like this we all refused to accept it..

i have some of the answers of your questions..

the examples which you gave  regarding people at different circumstances , they were already told about their test and after watching their situation they accpet it...

now when a question paper is in hand and you are refusing to take that test.. its out of rule once you see that question paper if you quit you will fail. we risk ourself.. we must carry on the test and for reward we have to pass it as well... option of quiting not exist only in the shape of failure..

right now i also dnt have answer for the qestion which i posted apart from the wordings which i will post below, becoz i think what we are discussing is not our matter its the matter between God and his creation so we are exempt from thinking about it..

here are some verses which will cover your answers but the actual question verse in regarding this dispute i will share in the end..

Who breaks covenant with Allah after establishing it(on going examination) and cut what Allah has ordered to be joined,
and cause disorder on earth. They are the losers. 2 27


44:38 And We have not created the heavens and the earth, and everything
between them, for mere play.
44:39 We did not create them except with the truth, but most of them
do not know. (all the creation including us, mountains, stars, tree etc)



6:165 He is the One who made you successors on earth, and He raised some of you over others in grades,
to test you with what He had given you. Your Lord is quick to punishment, and He is Forgiving, Compassionate.( regarding situations and provisions grading ranking rich poor etc)


6:164 Say: "Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?"
And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another.
Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in.
( i think we will get answer for our question on judgement day not only this lot of questions in which we dispute)

we know God is full of justice and if something happen let say a person like hitler/changaiz khan who kill millions of people
get in paradise then everybody will question Allah why they are here..

again when God will put somebody in heaven without the initial test been taken by them the hell people can also argue from God why they are here why dnt you let us all die if you know we will be one of the wicked..

i think its bot hard to explain what actually i m asking from you guys..

right now i have answer in the shape of 6/164 i have not any theory yet..

peace
God bless  you


SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2016, 10:53:45 AM »


3- What about the one who has not got a clue he/she is being tested? like say a very rich person who has always been comfortable and spent all their life in "luxury" protected by family and systems?



about this particular thing, i was thinking to share my personal experience with you...

in my life 32 years i see planetey of millionaires and some of them are mulitmillionaire..

interestingly i fond them all in some situations always... they are not exempt from test...

some of them i are suffering from kids, some of them are much worried about their money and to secure that money..

and infact the test of rich is much much more diffficult then poor...

poor dnt need to be accountable for the money he earn as he hardly fullfill his duties bt the test for rich is quite hard , we now God is advising us to share our money or a  percentage of our money with poor, family and needy and i hardly found any rich perosn who really help pooor, the most of the rich people have a habbit to collect money thats why they becomme rich they dnt want to spend their pennny without a purpose...

and all the life they save money which is infact used by somebody else when they died lol

is it a easy test honestly tell me..

we see and admore always richness but the innerside is totally different .. not all 90% of them have a strange arrogance inside them they dndt even like to talk woth somebody who is not their level... if some poor reletive ask for a favor they never pick his phone.. ?

the poor people they see like there are animals iin the clothing of human.. if a poor person touch their car they slap him how dare you to touch my bmw lol...

infact the only thing they earned is money thats it which they have to lose anyway ...

but again everybody in this life wannt to be rich .. why becoz we think rich is better than poor..

in real meanings on judgement day God will not ask how much you earn, how many bmw you got , how many people you ruled, how many properties you buy...

God will ask what you do with the money i provided you?
peace
God bless you..

aww sorry i forget to tell you there tests are also exist and the difficult ones... i remeber a perosn although he was really nice , he was not allowed to eat spicy or salty foood and consume sugars.. his diet was two sugar free biscuits aat breakdfast,, just a potatoe or boil vegetable in lunch and some stuff like porridge inn night and he was one of the millionaire i know.. look he have everything but still he is unable to taste provisions..

this life is very strange real picture is very different..
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

truthseeker11

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2016, 11:14:40 AM »
Peace Imran,

I will attempt to answer your question based on the knowledge I have been given, but please feel free to discard this if it does not resonate with you.

The quranic evidence of reincarnation (on this planet or another similar planet) is undisputable (2:28, 40:11).

Additionally, since the Creator is infinite (2:115), all creation is a tiny part of the infinite Creator. In the 3rd density existence we don't remember this due to the veil of forgetfulness (7:172, 36:60) in this temporary illusion of separation, but after death the veil is lifted and the souls (who are 6th density existence) remember everything. They remember that they are in reality one with the infinite Creator, and that their will and the will of the infinite Creator is one and the same, and they remember all their actions in all their past lives.

In between lives area (BLA - also called Sitter space), some souls, being part of the infinite Creator, voluntarily choose to be born in another life as children who will die young or as mentally ill etc. out of their own free will. There are few reasons for this:

1. Some of the infinite ways the infinite Creator experiences itself.

2. To act as catalyst to help others evolve spiritually. In BLA there are soul groups who are all long lasting "friends" of each other and before incarnating again, they make different pacts and agreements to help each other in their spiritual progress during the 3rd density existence. Some souls choose to incarnate as children who will die young, or as mentally ill, because they have made an agreement to help their "friend" souls, and this choice acts as a catalyst in their friends' spiritual progress.

Thus these souls make a great sacrifice (sacrificing one incarnation cycle) to help out their friend souls, in service to the infinite Creator. In a subsequent life they might choose to be born again to lead a healthy life of full length and try to evolve to the 4th density state of existence or "heaven" (unless they are "wanderers", in which case they go straight back to "heaven". Please see below).

3. Karmic repercussion (99:7-8). Some souls who have caused the death of a young child in previous life or have caused someone to go mentally insane due to their actions, will realize their mistake in BLA when they review their life. These souls, being part of the infinite Creator, will voluntarily choose to be incarnated in next life to experience the perspective of being on the "opposite end", so they will incarnate as a child who will be killed while young, or as mentally ill or physically disabled etc.

This is how we can explain all the birth defects, or children dying young, or being mentally ill or physically disabled etc. It could be to act as a catalyst to help others evolve spiritually (without having done anything negative in past life), or it could be the karmic repercussion of past life actions.

4. They could be "wanderers". Sometimes souls who have already evolved to higher densities such as 4th, 5th or 6th densities, voluntarily choose to come back to 3rd density in service to the infinite Creator, to help their fellow "juniors" to spiritually evolve by acting as a catalyst in their life or to teach them important lessons. Some of the children who die young, or mentally ill are these "wanderers". At present there are millions of "wanderers" on earth leading lives in various perspectives, and all of them came back from "heaven" to aid us in our spiritual progress.

Jesus was one of them as well as Muhammad. When Jesus came to Earth he had already graduated to 4th density existence (in your terminology he was in "heaven" already), and he came back to 3rd density to teach us the lesson of love and oneness of the infinite Creator. Currently he is in the 5th or 6th density state of existence. Muhammad was in the 6th density state of existence before he came to Earth and then went back directly to the 6th density existence.

####################

The soul voluntarily chooses all the lessons to be learned (which you call "tests") in BLA before incarnating in next life, so it can experience different perspectives and evolve spiritually. This is analogous to the subjects that someone might choose to major or minor in before starting college. Some of those lessons could be chosen by the soul due to karmic repercussions as well.

In the example of the rich in your above post, the soul chose to be born rich so it can experience that perspective and all the consequences. In that life it could use that money to be 51% or more service to others, thereby breaking the incarnation cycle and immediately evolving to 4th density state of existence (which you call "heaven") after death, or it could use that money for service to self and to control and manipulate others, which would lead to karmic repercussions and continuation of the incarnation cycle.

Peace
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God’s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: “Follow what God has sent down,” they say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!” What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: “Bring forth your proof.” They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

hawk99

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2016, 12:47:49 PM »


brother instead of giving the reason you bring same thing... again.. yeh i am asking everybody get tested and rewarded.. right.. i have no issue



I disagree, everyone does not get tested, you keep missing my point!

but question is not for them who get tested.. question is for them who did not give a test and people claim they will get rewarded.. are we missing something.. ?



I did not make a claim of reward!



why should we put ourself in the test when we know some of them or most of them will get  failed..?


The test is not from us but from Allah.


in this case the people like kids or mentallly instable. are they lucky enough from us. they did not lose anything..?


Yes they are lucky.  This reminds me of the time when I was very busy and a mentally ill
man who was skipping through the park seeming not to have a care in the world, and I remember
thinking, he is lucky no to have to go thru this crap!

what is the criteria for judging the soul which is not undergone for test...?


This I do not understand.

Conclusion: Please study cause and effect it may be helpful.



                                     8)
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Man of Faith

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2016, 01:14:24 PM »
peace MOF,

so according to ur understanding the kids who died get birth again untill they will complete the test of this life..

Yes.

Quote
its also found in hinndu scriptures something simlar that they have to come for seven janam/births in this life then the travel to another dimenshn start.. or i get  you wrong there..?

Is it not peculiar that that word you mentioned which is likely Sanskrit has nearly the same letters as Jahennom?

In Semitic tradition the word seven can either mean the number or several, and it is probably the case in your given example too.

We are stuck in this world for as long as we do not develop, so it is recurring like a nightmare. It is better to take it seriously in order to avoid another cycle. The entertainment and life of this world is not your true interest.

Be well
Amenuel
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Comrox

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2016, 06:05:21 PM »
Peace truthseeker11,

Peace Imran,

I will attempt to answer your question based on the knowledge I have been given, but please feel free to discard this if it does not resonate with you.

The quranic evidence of reincarnation (on this planet or another similar planet) is undisputable (2:28, 40:11).

Curious, what is your understanding of 23:99-100?
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

truthseeker11

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2016, 07:35:37 PM »
Peace Comrox,

Curious, what is your understanding of 23:99-100?

These verses actually offer more indisputable evidence of reincarnation.

23:99 talks about a request to go back to the same existence (same body) in same circumstances after death is complete (in near death experience the death is not complete and body is still viable). That is not possible. 23:100 implies that after death is complete, there is a barrier that prevents the soul from going back into the same body in same circumstances until the soul is sent back to a different body. The new incarnation is in a "new creation" (17:49, 17:98) meaning a different body.

The wording "prevent them from going back until......." implies that they do go back once what is mentioned after "until" happens, so it does not rule out reincarnation. It indicates that reincarnation in the same body in the same exact circumstances is not possible after death is complete, but does not rule out reincarnation in a different body (new creation) in different circumstances.

Following is a another post about these verses:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608327.msg389489#msg389489

Following is a detailed article on quranic evidence of reincarnation:

https://reincarnationquran.wordpress.com/

Peace
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God’s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: “Follow what God has sent down,” they say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!” What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: “Bring forth your proof.” They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2016, 10:57:55 PM »
I disagree, everyone does not get tested, you keep missing my point!



The test is not from us but from Allah.

Yes they are lucky.  This reminds me of the time when I was very busy and a mentally ill
man who was skipping through the park seeming not to have a care in the world, and I remember
thinking, he is lucky no to have to go thru this crap!


[/size]


Conclusion: Please study cause and effect it may be helpful.



                                     8)

GREEN but everybody accepted the trust , and verse is saying to all the audience we willl surely test you

RED yeh test is from God but we are undergoing from this test.. God is not taking a test forcefully...we accepted it at first place when there was a choice..

BLUE lol he is lucky is it not unfair with rest of the students of life.. but strange when we see a person like this we thanks to God he make us normal..  :pr

BROWN cause and effect apply to the people who were sitting in the examination.. the one who exempt from this law of cause and effect will be judged through a criteria which is only in the knowledge of God.. thats what the closest point is i think.. but see the verses i posted to GL regarding that  thing..

NOTE dnt get me wrong this thread  is not for debate session i also have no exact theory regarding all this i just want to see views of other people to make my understanding better..

peace
God bless you

SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2016, 11:00:51 PM »
Yes.



in case of this , little bit explain me, this theory seems unrealistic , i think everybody have just one chance..

or in the case of test mode we can understand if a student miss his exam he will have to wait for another exam to get to the next level.. worldy measures this theory fit well , but in the case of life it will be helpful if you refer some verses or some reference that support this theory..

peace God bless you..
SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

imrankhawaja

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2016, 11:05:37 PM »


I will attempt to answer your question based on the knowledge I have been given, but please feel free to discard this if it does not resonate with you.



peace my brother,

i have no right to discard the understanding of anybody, everybody have a right o represent their views..

and about incranation , its something unscientific , in my humble knowledge the algorithm of life is birth death rebirth on judgement day..

but for the people who did not qualify for the next level we can put fit this theory but again quran is silent on this particular issue.. apart from the verse  , that there are some answers we will get  to know after this life..in which we dispute..

but thanx for opening a new way of thinkinng for me...i will study about it more..
and God bless you

SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

Timotheus

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2016, 11:45:04 PM »
quran is silent on this particular issue..

peace, i think this sums up this topic, we should not be conjecturing about things we have no knowledge of
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

Man of Faith

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Re: question from all ?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2016, 03:54:28 AM »
in case of this , little bit explain me, this theory seems unrealistic , i think everybody have just one chance..

or in the case of test mode we can understand if a student miss his exam he will have to wait for another exam to get to the next level.. worldy measures this theory fit well , but in the case of life it will be helpful if you refer some verses or some reference that support this theory..

peace God bless you..

I find it unrealistic that a child is born to die without any possibility to have an impact on his or her condition. That is more illogical than my explanation. The world has reincarnation, imran.

I cannot refer to the sectarian interpretation of Quran to prove my point as it is just merely nonsensical and unrelated to what it is supposed to say. I could refer to my reinterpretation of Quran to show verses clearly and evidently showing reincarnation to be a true concept, but then you need to accept the prowess in my work.

And, imran, this is no theory. Quran has had no proper interpretation for hundreds of years, even more than a millennium. Many other scriptures despite their present often mistranslated shape represent the truth better than Quran as Quran is more or less nonsensical in its translation and interpretation. The only other scripture matching Quran's state is the so-called Old Testament which is nearly on par with the misleading nature of Quran. But, in the Bible the Gospels are the closest ones to the true portrayal although those are still poor translations originally in Syriac Aramaic.

God according to the Biblical Old Testament/Tanakh and Quran is more like a warlord, hateful and jealous. Quran deceptively seems so because a group of clerics and scholars messed with it in ancient times never being close to what is really is supposed to convey. I have not researched on the Old Testament yet in any greater extent, but a few brief checks have indicated at least once a severe error in translation.

And it is evident when people do not even know the word of Elah or Elohim or Allah and use it as if it means God. It shows they did not grasp the nature of God or Rabb which is the real attributing "name" of God in Arabic.

And if you refer to life, it would be illogical if anyone is doomed after one trial in this hard and deceptive environment. Many people are simply not born and raised in fair situations that would justify eternal punishment for failure when they had no possibility to focus anything on their salvation. You can skip what scriptures say and think about it rationally instead. Just look at the situation people are around you and how many young children die of starvation and then reflect on how they can be guilty of sin when they never even had done anything in particular in their lives. It simply is not sensible that they do not come again, for they clearly have done nothing of development of their Spirit to arrive in "Heaven". Be wise, imran, and skip the sectarian dogma and use your mind and think rationally.

Be well
Amenuel
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