Author Topic: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!  (Read 7538 times)

lyro34

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 03:47:04 AM »
No, thanks. I suppose I could imagine the verse you're going to use support your opinion.

Anyway, I think we don't have agreement on "women empowerment" issue, but I'm not having mood for debate.  :peace:

Peace, thanks for taking the time to read though. Didn't post this topic for a debate with people. ^^' Unless people are potentially interested in marriage with me, I don't think people really should post here. o.o PMs would be better in my opinion.

Peace, i do not seek the ignorant,

if your going to back up your rediculous views based on the authority of paul and his letter to the church in ephesus.. realy..?

as for your other views, you have some valid points, you also have a severely distorted understanding of the quran..
but regardless it seems you have made up your mind..

Peace

Here are some more verses from the bible: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Wife-Submit-To-Your-Husband/

Unless they are all written by Paul?

And as for me having a distorted understanding of the Quran, Allah will judge that and settle the matters where we differ but for you to say my understanding is distorted, then produce your proof if you are truthful? Back up anything you are stating by the Quran or otherwise, so far I have only seen conjecture with no verses to back your claims at all. But anyways, this is my matrimony thread, not a debate thread, so you can PM me if you you have any further concerns.

Peace, i do not seek the ignorant.

Wakas

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2016, 05:38:30 AM »
peace lyro,

Welcome to the forum. I skimmed your posts, and here are three points:

You claim man was created first:

...is the One who created you from one soul (grammar: feminine), and He made from it (grammar: feminine) its mate (grammar: masculine) to reside with... [4:1, 7:189]


You claim wives submit to husbands, see part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2


You claim the husband does not have to provide for the family, see the verses cited here:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm


Let us know your thoughts.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2016, 05:39:37 AM »
peace Comrox,
The verse you were thinking of is 4:128, which is also analysed in part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Timotheus

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2016, 06:53:42 AM »
peace lyro,

Welcome to the forum. I skimmed your posts, and here are three points:

You claim man was created first:

...is the One who created you from one soul (grammar: feminine), and He made from it (grammar: feminine) its mate (grammar: masculine) to reside with... [4:1, 7:189]


You claim wives submit to husbands, see part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2


You claim the husband does not have to provide for the family, see the verses cited here:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm


Let us know your thoughts.


Peace wakas,

are you implying that female was created first?
grammatical gender, in my understanding is not always related to natural gender.

Peace

edit: i mean, in this case neither a soul, nor a mate have a natural gender.. in my understanding, so the gender is entirely grammatical..
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

Comrox

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2016, 01:42:53 PM »
Peace,

But it doesn't say both are equal besides, if the man was created first and then the woman from the man, then already the man and woman are not equal. The order of creation was man and then woman, and again, woman from the man, not vice-versa.

The hadith about women being created from a man's rib supports this viewpoint. But you've already said you don't believe in hadith.

That's their interpretation of the verse however they have still not proved that it is not talking about the husband(or maybe I failed to see?).

To me the verse is demonstrating a situation where the wife is at fault. So the wife, given that she is the one at fault, should obey her husband not because he is a man, but because she's the one in the wrong and she needs to listen to him to make the situation right again.

4:128 "And if a woman fears from her husband desertion or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do."

If the husband is the one in the wrong, as demonstrated in the verse above, then the husband is the one who needs to "do right."

(Maybe even this verse and the next, 4:129, could be an argument against common polygamy because in 4:128, the woman is fearing that her husband will leave her. In 4:129, the husband is told to not leave her hanging, and also that he cannot be fair to women no matter how hard he tries. But in 4:3 we're told if a husband fears he can't be fair to multiple wives, then he can only marry one wife. "And you will not be able to be fair regarding the women even if you make every effort" is a warning to men. So a man should always return to his wife if he wishes to do right. As 4:129 says men can't be fair to women, their only option is to marry only one anyway (I guess unless he feels his injustice to the orphans would be greater than the injustice for taking another wife?). But considering the context laid out in 4:127, when looking at 4:128 again it seems the current wife, if there is one, should have a say/influence over her husband if he wants to take in a mother of an orphan as a second wife while the current wife is against it. So the current husband and wife should reconcile and talk it out and do what is right for them. If the wife is really against it, then the right decision for the husband would be to not take another wife.)

True all should be devoutly obedient to Allah and obedience to Allah is stated throughout the Quran, however it is clear that men do have a degree over women(or at least to me it is clear),

2:228 "And those divorced shall wait for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile. And the obligations owed to them are to be fulfilled, as are the obligations owed by them. But the men will have a greater responsibility over them in this. And God is Noble, Wise."

Guessing the bolded part is what you are referring to? If there's another verse you have in mind, please enlighten me.

The context of 2:228 is about a separated couple, with a pregnancy, or the possibly of a pregnancy. If a woman is pregnant, and the man and woman want to remain together, they should be together to support each other and support their growing family. The men have a greater responsibility over the women in this situation because the husband is responsible for emotionally and financially supporting his wife and their family as she is the one carrying his child.

and since we are to go by all of the books Allah has revealed, you cannot disregard the bible, what I posted from the bible about the wife does not contradict the Quran and to my knowledge, does not contradict itself in the bible either(could but I am not aware at least). What I also know is that the world pumps equality for all, while yes I believe in being kind to all and respecting all, by nature women are not equal to men.

By physical nature yes we are not equal. I agree with you on that. ;) Although I think I'd prefer to say we simply have physical differences... men and women are different. :)
 
And another thing is how in the Quran the believing men and women asked for a son rather than a daughter, if they are both equal then why? Why were all the Prophets (SAW) male?(meaning the religious leaders we know are all male!) Why is the only female mentioned by name in the Quran Mary?

Humankind has pretty much always lived in a male-dominated society, until recent years where there has been some change in some areas. Male prophets were someone many males listening to the message could relate to, perhaps. And when the people retaliated against a messenger, perhaps men were able to withstand the punishments/consequences/emotional roller coaster better than their female counterparts. Maybe this thread has the answer: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14340.0

Isn't Mary mentioned in high regard in the Qur'an?

"What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?" (سورة النجم, An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #21)

"Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!" (سورة النجم, An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #21)

"Has then your Lord (O Pagans!) preferred for you sons, and taken for himself daughters among the angels? Truly ye utter a most dreadful saying! " (سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #40)

"What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? " (سورة الزخرف, Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #16)

When I've read these verses I've always taken the tone to be negative. We shouldn't assume angels are only female, and we shouldn't prefer sons over daughters. Before one of these types of verses I remember a few verses detailing a story of a man who was in despair because his wife gave birth to a daughter. But all sons and daughters are for humans - Not just sons. 

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. " (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #59)

So we differ among ourselves, let's refer it to Allah and his messenger (SAW) and any of the messengers (SAW), who were the head of their household? Who obeyed whom? It is stated multiple times that the messengers (SAW) were to be obeyed, so if we refer it to them then what conclusion do we draw? Like I have stated before, 2 heads on one body causes conflict/chaos, 2 kings causes conflict/chaos, 2 gods equals conflict, so 2 heads of the household causes conflict/chaos, if Allah created in perfect order and disposes of everything in a perfect order, then did he not place an order for the household? If something creates conflict/chaos then can you say it is from Allah who places things in perfect order? I know the world promotes that both sexes are equal and that women who obey and are submissive to their husbands are oppressed but the majority of this world is astray and don't obey Allah, the straight path is steep and narrow.

Yeah, whenever Allah wills that is when it will happen, we are all on his time. :D

Why does there even have to be a head of household? Why does one person in a household have to be dominant and make all the decisions?

The messengers were to be obeyed, of course. But to my knowledge that command wasn't addressed simply to women, but to all people willing to hear the message. God's message is meant for all.

Since I'm not U.S. citizen, thus I can't comment much on that, but I think you're a rare type of woman, sister. I mean, it seems not many women in U.S. have the wisdom and humbleness that you have.

Aw, thanks sis. :) I definitely know I am not the only woman here who thinks this way, though. ;)

peace Comrox,
The verse you were thinking of is 4:128, which is also analysed in part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2

Thanks Wakas! :) Thanks for your efforts.

You claim the husband does not have to provide for the family, see the verses cited here:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm


Let us know your thoughts.


I don't think lyro ever claimed that the husband doesn't have to provide for his wife. He seemed to be simply questioning the role of a university education in obtaining a career. And you seem to be doing pretty well for yourself, lyro. ;)

Peace, thanks for taking the time to read though. Didn't post this topic for a debate with people. ^^' Unless people are potentially interested in marriage with me, I don't think people really should post here. o.o PMs would be better in my opinion.

Opps, just saw this, I apologize. Threads do tend to get derailed into conversation though, even the introduction threads as you can see. ;D
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

Bender

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2016, 02:47:25 PM »
In search of a sincere guided believing woman who will take the time to actually read the text below!

Hi Lyro welcome to the forum  :handshake:

Just wondering how many love letters you got so far.
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

huruf

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2016, 12:22:20 AM »
It is symptomatic that people with very low self-esteem clieng to straw to get reinforced.

There is a saying in Italian: Traduttore-tradittore,that is

translator-traitor and in that aya of the Qur'an the traitor part is not a slip but the whole aya that is completely betrayed.

It must be great to believe that by the mere fact of having something hanging between the leg you are called to a very high destiny which gives you authority over half of humanity.

Of course, there is no such authority but plain gullibility whe anybody, man or woman, because of what he or she has between the legs, gets something given automatically.

Any man who comes with that line is asking to be cheated, because he has already shown that he is "so easily, so very easily" cheated.

Men are for women not the other way around. Woome guaranty the cotinuation of the species at their own cost, men must contribute being the suport of woen, not the other way around. And Saint Paul and is no authority on the Qur'an.

Gullibility comes out expensive even if for a while makes people feel great.

Salaam

Timotheus

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2016, 05:23:01 AM »
It is symptomatic that people with very low self-esteem clieng to straw to get reinforced.

There is a saying in Italian: Traduttore-tradittore,that is

translator-traitor and in that aya of the Qur'an the traitor part is not a slip but the whole aya that is completely betrayed.

It must be great to believe that by the mere fact of having something hanging between the leg you are called to a very high destiny which gives you authority over half of humanity.

Of course, there is no such authority but plain gullibility whe anybody, man or woman, because of what he or she has between the legs, gets something given automatically.

Any man who comes with that line is asking to be cheated, because he has already shown that he is "so easily, so very easily" cheated.

Men are for women not the other way around. Woome guaranty the cotinuation of the species at their own cost, men must contribute being the suport of woen, not the other way around. And Saint Paul and is no authority on the Qur'an.

Gullibility comes out expensive even if for a while makes people feel great.

Salaam

Peace

you raised some valid points,

however, can we call it even and say men are women are equal lol?
i thought if i recall correctly that god created human beings to dwell in tranquility with each other, or something like that
i cant find the verse though at this time

Peace
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

imrankhawaja

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2016, 07:11:43 AM »
these realtionship issues and things connected to these issues are worst things i have ever encounter,

becoz we want to apply the same rules on different nature of women/man in some cases it works in some cases its not,,

as a personal experience we should not get married with somebody who is not at the level of other person by wealth, education, status, nationality, color, and most important faith and religion..

if any one lacks in anything , the other side male or female always torture their mate.. so i think before getting married or realtion all these things make clear otherwise there is no result will come apart from breakup or depression in home which will cause more harm...

huruf

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Re: In search of a sincere, guided, believing woman!
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2016, 02:15:04 PM »
Peace

you raised some valid points,

however, can we call it even and say men are women are equal lol?
i thought if i recall correctly that god created human beings to dwell in tranquility with each other, or something like that
i cant find the verse though at this time

Peace

Obviously men and men are not equal. Women bear all the physical burden of reproduction, men don't. To pretend that on top of that or may be because of that men should lord over women is obviously abusive. That is not what the Qur'an says, what the Qur'an says in that mistreated aya 4.34 is that men should be a full support for women (not to be confused with being a boss) men are free of the burden of reproduction, but they still benefit of the fact that humanity continues because it reproduces, therefore if balance is going to exist in society men must contribute to balance the women's extra burden as the Qur'an provides.

Salaam