THE ISSUE OF PALESTINE

[wrkmmn]

Peace:

THE ISSUE OF PALESTINE

Palestinians are some of the most oppressed people on earth, but how should believers act regarding that issue? Believers should act according to God?s law.

8:72 BEHOLD, as for those who have attained to faith, and who have emigrated and are striving hard, with their possessions and their lives, in God's cause, as well as those who shelter and succour [them] - these are [truly] the friends and protectors of one another. But as for those who have come to believe without having migrated [to your country] - you are in no wise responsible for their protection until such a time as they migrate [to you]. Yet, if they ask you for succour against religious persecution, it is your duty to give [them] this succour - except against a people between whom and yourselves there is a covenant: for God sees all that you do.

8:72 has the answers in how to act towards the Palestinian issue.

First, believers have to define if the majority of those living in Palestine or Gaza are believers. However, the majority of those living there today are Sunnis, and belonging to a sect equals disbelief. Also, many of them are already working for Israel, and are happy to serve Israel.
Second, it has to be defined if the Palestinians are being killed for the land, or just for calling themselves Muslim. This is in part difficult to define, because Israel seems to be interested only in the land. However, in order to get the foundation of the Jerusalem Temple they need to eliminate the faith too.


The only case scenario where believers are allowed to help the oppressed people is if the oppressor is oppressing the people for no other reason than being Muslims, which would apply more to EU and USA than to Palestine. However, the Israelites seem to be interested mainly on the land. Therefore, the few believers that could exist in that land should immigrate to a believing country, and wait until God grants power to the believers so that their enemies could be put humiliated at their feet. However, this issue gets complicated when deciding that the Jews shall not be allowed to touch Al-aqsa mosque.

In the case of Palestine, the believers will gain little in taking the land from the hypocrite Jews, who do not obey the Torah, just to put it in the hands of hypocrite Muslims, who do not obey the Quran. And, believers shall not sacrifice for the wellbeing of disbelievers. However, an attack on the Mosque is an attack on the Faith. And, according to the Gospel, the Jews shall not get anything back until they say blessed the one that comes in the name of the Lord, and keeping this promise seems to fall on the shoulders of believers.

May God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom

[JavaLatte]

The only case scenario where believers are allowed to help the oppressed people is if the oppressor is oppressing the people for no other reason than being Muslims, which would apply more to EU and USA than to Palestine.

How I can say that they are being oppressed if there are many prosperous muslims there if compared to other muslims who live in Asia and Africa?

If they feel oppressed (or persecuted), perhaps they could immigrate to other continents then, to the countries where muslims are the majority - that's if they dare to live more simple than they used to live in EU and USA.

As long as they prefer to live in EU and USA and happily enjoy the facilities of the countries where they live in, it is ridiculous to say that they are being oppressed.

P.S. Never I saw people who remind me of the true believers described in the Qur'an, not even on this forum.

[wrkmmn]

Peace:

How I can say that they are being oppressed if there are many prosperous muslims.

oh, the hypocrites are loved, so they can send them back to work in muslim countries as their dogs.

I see that you are very ignorant, I live in Us and there is oppression. everybody of my relatives shoot guns and go hunting and post pictures in the internet, but if a muslim post a picture holding a gun, he is risking being pick up by the FBI and desapeared. And if your speech is too strong against them, they do to you a sting job on you, and if they cannot fool you, the get you for any reason, and you have no right to fair trial, or to a lawyer, they only disappear you.



I am still looking for a country to emigrate, because most of those who call themselves Muslim countries are dogs of the west. My options were narrowed to Syria and Iran, or among the controlled areas of Hezbollah, and now seems that only Iran.

[JavaLatte]

oh, the hypocrites are loved, so they can send them back to work in muslim countries as their dogs.

What do you mean by hypocrites? Do you refer to the muslims who happily live in US and Europe?

Wait... I think I can use these as examples. See these pics?

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608576.msg390404#msg390404

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608576.msg390405#msg390405

Was he being oppressed?

I think he could be an example. I cannot see him as someone who is being oppressed. And perhaps many of members here also prefer to live in Europe and US than to live in Asia or Africa.

The US muslims I ever knew also did not seem oppressed. It seemed they were not really happy though, but it seemed they were not being oppressed.

Anyway, I myself don't favor living in US. Somehow I think that probably the great punishment from God to that country could arrive sooner or later.

I am still looking for a country to emigrate, because most of those who call themselves Muslim countries are dogs of the west. My options were narrowed to Syria and Iran, or among the controlled areas of Hezbollah, and now seems that only Iran.

Hmm yea, Iran might be a good place for you - if you want to emigrate. As for me, currently, I still prefer to live in my country. Even though 'the muslims' (muslims based on ID cards) are majority here, but Indonesia is not an Islamic country.

Peace.

[JavaLatte]

P.S. Never I saw people who remind me of the true believers described in the Qur'an, not even on this forum.

After consideration, I decide to abrogate the above statement I ever made/wrote in this thread. I want to abrogate it because of some reasons, among others:

1) Yesterday, I got criticism from someone who seemed to have objection with my statement above, and what this person given to me (the constructive criticism) made me rethink/review what I wrote above.

This person have raised my awareness that I need to fix the wrong thing I did/wrote. And I also think that I should apologize to anyone I might have hurt (became displeased) because of my statement. Thus, in this post, I want to apologize to this person (who reminded/advised/criticized me) and I also want to apologize to the other members and to the other people who felt/feel unpleasant (or angry or upset or offended or any kind of inconvenience) because of what I wrote on that post. I think I've made careless statement that has possibility to hurt/offend the people who have faith in Allah, and for that, I am very sorry.

I suppose that if they feel offended because of that statement, then it means they have wish/desire to be the believer - I think that's a good wish.

2) The same person mentioned Kassim Ahmad and pointed him (Kassim Ahmad) as believer, and after that reminding, I agree with this person that Kassim Ahmad is a believer. And if I'm not mistaken, this person also mentioned other names, and perhaps this person might be right that they're also believers.

3) Also yesterday, I remembered about a brother who started this thread: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606247.msg347433#msg347433
And I became remember that I like his devotion in following the Qur'an. Anyway, around the time when this brother had discussion on this thread, it seemed I (myself) didn't pay good/enough attention on what he wrote, I suppose I was still not aware of his perseverance in following the Qur'an. But today, I think he seems to be a believer (if he really practices what he wrote). I think his seriousness in following Qur'an is a good example for us.

When I made the statement (that I want to abrogate), I did not even refer myself as believer. Even until now, I don't see myself as a believer. I see myself as someone who's hoping to be included as muslims. I hope at least I can be counted as muslim, because for me, being a true muslim already not easy, thus being a true believer seems out of my target. I think I don't have enough courage and diligence to be categorized as believer, if compared to the believers I know from the Qur'an, then I am someone who's coward and lazy if compared to them.

However, I am disappointed that I cannot sense the clear signs of the believers existence in this forum. I don't see what is mentioned on verse 9:71 appears on this forum. I think the believers supposed to be allies for one another, meanwhile I don't see the real cooperation/alliance on this forum, I suppose most people here (including me) tend to focus on their own need/inclination. We don't seem to have something (e.g. a real goal) to strive together in a cooperative manner, something that can unite us and make us really like allies. But, maybe I'm also wrong in this, perhaps there's actually something that people here cooperate to support together.

Perhaps I have too ideal standard to define the believer - and maybe I also need to review my standard in defining the believer.

I have hope that there are still true believers in this world. If there are members here who sincerely hope to be true believers then may Allah help and guide them to be true believers and may He place them among the believers.

And to someone who reminded/advised/criticized me, I want to say thank you. Thank you for caring, I've learned valuable things because of your "insistences" (I think I can call those as encouragements from you), thank you very much. May Allah reward you with abundant goodness in this life and in the hereafter.

Peace.

[Timotheus]

After consideration, I decide to abrogate the above statement I ever made/wrote in this thread. I want to abrogate it because of some reasons, among others:

1) Yesterday, I got criticism from someone who seemed to have objection with my statement above, and what this person given to me (the constructive criticism) made me rethink/review what I wrote above.

This person have raised my awareness that I need to fix the wrong thing I did/wrote. And I also think that I should apologize to anyone I might have hurt (became displeased) because of my statement. Thus, in this post, I want to apologize to this person (who reminded/advised/criticized me) and I also want to apologize to the other members and to the other people who felt/feel unpleasant (or angry or upset or offended or any kind of inconvenience) because of what I wrote on that post. I think I've made careless statement that has possibility to hurt/offend the people who have faith in Allah, and for that, I am very sorry.

I suppose that if they feel offended because of that statement, then it means they have wish/desire to be the believer - I think that's a good wish.

2) The same person mentioned Kassim Ahmad and pointed him (Kassim Ahmad) as believer, and after that reminding, I agree with this person that Kassim Ahmad is a believer. And if I'm not mistaken, this person also mentioned other names, and perhaps this person might be right that they're also believers.

3) Also yesterday, I remembered about a brother who started this thread: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606247.msg347433#msg347433
And I became remember that I like his devotion in following the Qur'an. Anyway, around the time when this brother had discussion on this thread, it seemed I (myself) didn't pay good/enough attention on what he wrote, I suppose I was still not aware of his perseverance in following the Qur'an. But today, I think he seems to be a believer (if he really practices what he wrote). I think his seriousness in following Qur'an is a good example for us.

When I made the statement (that I want to abrogate), I did not even refer myself as believer. Even until now, I don't see myself as a believer. I see myself as someone who's hoping to be included as muslims. I hope at least I can be counted as muslim, because for me, being a true muslim already not easy, thus being a true believer seems out of my target. I think I don't have enough courage and diligence to be categorized as believer, if compared to the believers I know from the Qur'an, then I am someone who's coward and lazy if compared to them.

However, I am disappointed that I cannot sense the clear signs of the believers existence in this forum. I don't see what is mentioned on verse 9:71 appears on this forum. I think the believers supposed to be allies for one another, meanwhile I don't see the real cooperation/alliance on this forum, I suppose most people here (including me) tend to focus on their own need/inclination. We don't seem to have something (e.g. a real goal) to strive together in a cooperative manner, something that can unite us and make us really like allies. But, maybe I'm also wrong in this, perhaps there's actually something that people here cooperate to support together.

Perhaps I have too ideal standard to define the believer - and maybe I also need to review my standard in defining the believer.

I have hope that there are still true believers in this world. If there are members here who sincerely hope to be true believers then may Allah help and guide them to be true believers and may He place them among the believers.

And to someone who reminded/advised/criticized me, I want to say thank you. Thank you for caring, I've learned valuable things because of your "insistences" (I think I can call those as encouragements from you), thank you very much. May Allah reward you with abundant goodness in this life and in the hereafter.

Peace.

Peace be with you.

May our lord forgive you, and all of us, and guide us to do better, because surely we all make errors, i myself make many. I think you raise an important point. We need to reunite, and not let ourselves be divided, as, from the previous scriptures 'a house divided against itself cannot stand' and our lord advises us all to hold together, and not to be divided in the quran. It can be hard, for myself for example i struggle with pride, and i am often to quick to jump to conclusions that 'your wrong' because your understanding is different from mine. we must all realise that we are only human beings, and unite despite of our differences, and strive to be humble to others, and to truely trust in our lord, and to show love to those who trust in Him, as our lord reminds us in the quran, do not say to one who greets you with peace, 'you are not a believer'.. This is something our lord has been reminding me of lately, which i must focus on, and i think we all need to focus on. this is part of my intention, if our lord has willed, in starting islamtogether.org, as a place where all people, followers of all of our lords scriptures, can come together to study, and discuss, if our lord wills, in a environment of peace, and mutual respect, one which is dedicated entirely to study, and learning, increasing and sharing understanding. regardless, we all need to learn to apply the quran to do better, and strive for our lord to purify ourselves.

Peace, i do pray we can all humble ourselves, and strive to do better, together and individualy. satan is always trying to drive a wedge between us, we cannot let ourselves become divided, regardless of our differing opinions, we are all subject to the same rules, the same test, and we all only have a limited understanding.

[Adam The Warner]

Peace:

oh, the hypocrites are loved, so they can send them back to work in muslim countries as their dogs.

I see that you are very ignorant, I live in Us and there is oppression. everybody of my relatives shoot guns and go hunting and post pictures in the internet, but if a muslim post a picture holding a gun, he is risking being pick up by the FBI and desapeared. And if your speech is too strong against them, they do to you a sting job on you, and if they cannot fool you, the get you for any reason, and you have no right to fair trial, or to a lawyer, they only disappear you.



I am still looking for a country to emigrate, because most of those who call themselves Muslim countries are dogs of the west. My options were narrowed to Syria and Iran, or among the controlled areas of Hezbollah, and now seems that only Iran.

Israel is better for you. At least they try to uphold the Torah there.

What do they try to uphold in Iran? Iran is the biggest fabricator on earth after India.

Syria? I wish you good luck, with all the different groups fighting there. And testing all their new wapeons on arabs.

[Timotheus]

Israel is better for you. At least they try to uphold the Torah there.

What do they try to uphold in Iran? Iran is the biggest fabricator on earth after India.

Syria? I wish you good luck, with all the different groups fighting there. And testing all their new wapeons on arabs.

Peace..

All the nations on the earth are corrupted, including your beloved israel.

i put my trust, and my support in the Ruler of the heavens and the earth! none can even get close to his domain, without his authority, and he is the lord of righteousness, the lord of forgiveness, his just judgement is never swayed, and none can compare to him

[JavaLatte]

Peace @ Timotheus.

Thank you brother, for the good hopes, the prayer, and the reminder. 

we cannot let ourselves become divided, regardless of our differing opinions,

I agree.  May Allah always guide us to the straight (right) path.

[Timotheus]

Peace @ Timotheus.

Thank you brother, for the good hopes, the prayer, and the reminder. 

I agree.  May Allah always guide us to the straight (right) path.

Peace, and our lords mercy sister.

Alhamdullilah - All Praise and Thanks be to Allah

if you benefit from a reminder, praise be to Him!

if i err, i hope in my lords mercy.

Peace