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THE REFORMIST CASE

Started by wrkmmn, July 05, 2016, 05:39:13 PM

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wrkmmn

PEACE:

THE REFORMIST CASE

Main Book: Quran a reformist translation; Translated and annotated by Edip Yuksel, Layth Saleh, and Martha Schulted.
Their argument: Quran is not written in clear Arabic words, but in mathematical code.
Their Prophet: Rashad Kalifa
Accusation: twisting the word, and leading farther astray the already lost Muslim community.

Reformist is one of the latest sects competing for the sheep-like followers in the Muslim community. They are good at cutting the ears of their cattle so that it cannot listen.

According to the reformist, their messenger received revelation in 1974, in which he, and his disciples, were allowed to twist the whole idea of the message of Quran. They sound just like Paul in the bible.

They affirmed in Surat 74: ?Prophesy fulfilled?. Claiming that verse 74:30 translated by them as ?on it is nineteen? refers to the Quran and its 19 Code. Let?s analyze the verses around it, in order to show their corruption.

74:25  سَأُصْلِيهِ I will burn him/ cause him to suffer  سَقَرَ  SaQaR  74:26  وَمَآ  And what  أَدْرَاكَ  tells you مَا  what سَقَرُ  SaQaR [is] 74:27 لاَ No تُبْقِى  She spares وَلاَ and not تَذَرُ  she leaves   74:29 لَوَّاحَةٌ Scorcher/ burner (fem. Noun) لِّلْبَشَرِ for the human/ skin 74:30  عَلَيْهَا  over her   تِسْعَةَ عَشَرَ  nineteen 74:31  وَمَا And not جَعَلْنَآ we have made أَصْحَابَ guardians [of] ٱلنَّارِ the fire إِلاَّ except مَلاَئِكَةً  angels. وَمَا  And not  جَعَلْنَآ we have made عِدَّتَهُمْ  their number  إِلاَّ except  فِتْنَةً trial لِّلَّذِينَ for the ones that    كَفَرُواْ  they have disbelieved?
Verse 74:30 is clearly speaking about SaQaR  wich is presented as a synonym of Fire. It is impossible that 74:30 could be speaking about Quran, or even Kitab (the book), because it is talking about a feminine subject, and Quran and Kitab are masculine.

3:7 He [is] the one that descended upon you the book, مِنْهُ  of him(it)  verses/signs precise/well defined?
72:1 It has been revealed to me that a group of the Jin listened, they have said: verily we, we have heard a Quran wondrous.72:2  يَهْدِيۤ   he(it) guides  إِلَى over/to ٱلرُّشْدِ the good judgment/ correctness; فَآمَنَّا so, we have believed بِهِ in him(it) وَلَن  and never نُّشرِكَ we associating بِرَبِّنَآ with our Lord   أَحَداً anyone.
19:97 فَإِنَّمَا then, verily that  يَسَّرْنَاهُ we have facilitated him(it)  بِلَسَانِكَ in your language لِتُبَشِّرَ  to give good news   بِهِ with him(it)?
85:21 بَلْ  Nay هُوَ him(it)  قُرْآنٌ [is a] Quran    مَّجِيدٌ  [a] Glorious one.

         
They claim that verse 74:35 makes emphasis on the code 19 . However, 74:35 إِنَّهَا verily her(it)  لإِحْدَى  * one[of]/unique/alone  َ ٱلْكُبَرِ the greatest, it is still talking about the feminine subject SaQaR. Maybe SaQaR has a 19 code. Well, if the continue in their path, soon they will come to know.                       

They also claim more nonsense about Surat 74, they say: ??now we know that the word Saqar refers to an intellectual punishment. The extreme allergy and aversion demonstrated by Sunni and Shiite mushriks against the number 19 is part of the prophetic fulfillment of these verses.? They even dare to call people Mushriks, they should get the plank out of their eye, so that they can see the piece of grass in their brother?s eye.

They claim that the Quarn is numerically structured, and put as evidence 83:9,20, which they claim to say ?numbered record?. However, the word  مَّرْقُومٌ  Marqwm has a closer meaning to marked, inscribed, than to numbered. Furthermore, verse 89:9 is not talking about Quran, but about Sijyn, the record of the wicked, and verse 83:20 about I?lywn, the record of the pious.

They claim to even have the true interpretation of the mutashabih (resembling, allegorical) verses, because, as they claim, they are people well founded in knowledge. However, if the root is rotten, then the whole tree is sick.

Can their translation of Quran be trusted by believers? They say: ? To correct the egregious historical biases so obvious in previous English translations, we have chosen to take an inclusive approach incorporating input from scholars, lay readers, and even non-Muslims?? This people are a joke.

This people seem to be only in the business of creating controversial issues, and creating confusion in the community with respect to rituals commanded by God, in order to sell books.
2:11 If they are told ?Do not make evil in the land,? they say, ?but we are the reformers!?
2:12 No, they are evildoers, but they do not perceive.


May God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.                 

Novice

Quote from: wrkmmn on July 05, 2016, 05:39:13 PM
This people seem to be only in the business of creating controversial issues, and creating confusion in the community with respect to rituals commanded by God, in order to sell books.               

Any translation of Quran is an effort to interpret it. Quran gives guidance to those who open it to get guidance. This guidance depends upon individuals seeking it. One can investigate interpretation by using God gifted faculties as per 17:36

....وَلَا تَقۡفُ مَا لَيۡسَ لَكَ بِهِۦ عِلۡمٌ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱلسَّمۡعَ وَٱلۡبَصَرَ وَٱلۡفُؤَادَ كُلُّ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ كَانَ عَنۡهُ مَسۡـُٔولاً۬ (٣٦

...And do not follow a thing about which you have no knowledge. Surely, the ear, the eye and the heart - each one of them shall be interrogated about.

Rituals commanded by God? Are you sure if God needs anything from us.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَغَنِيٌّ عَنِ الْعَالَمِينَ 29:6......

....Allah is free of all needs from all creation....

Peace




Timotheus

Peace

Yes, i was, and am quite concerned with people who not only sell quran translations without the actual quranic text aswell at least, and those who instead add their own footnotes etc.

we cannot perfectly re-create the quran in another language. because we are not able. its perfect because god revealed it. we cannot even produce one surah like it, as god tells us in the quran
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

Comrox

Peace Timotheus,

Quote from: Timotheus on July 06, 2016, 06:10:42 AM
Peace

Yes, i was, and am quite concerned with people who not only sell quran translations without the actual quranic text aswell at least, and those who instead add their own footnotes etc.

we cannot perfectly re-create the quran in another language. because we are not able. its perfect because god revealed it. we cannot even produce one surah like it, as god tells us in the quran

You mean you don't like translators who choose to not have side by side English translation with the Arabic text?

Personally I prefer to just see the English. People who are reading the Qur'an for the first time might want to only see it in their own language.

If the translator is not trying to manipulate the Qur'anic text with information from external sources, I don't see the problem with quality footnotes. Like anything else, they may harm or benefit the reader's experience, but it's up to the reader to separate the good from the bad.
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

Layth

Salam,

I would like to reply to this post since I am associated with the work "Reformist Translation".

The enlightenment of Muslims came through the opening of their minds and the courage to ask and question every aspect of their new religion as well as their world and their history. That Muslims have transgressed into ignorant barbarians who are possibly a few notches below the ignorance of their ancestors who were pagans in Mecca is a direct result of their inability to question, debate, discuss, or tolerate.

The Reformist Translation uses at its core "The Message" which is the translation available on this site. The work is different in that it expands the translation of the text and provides a commentary which speaks of the verses in some detail.

As for the 19 aspect. That there are patterns in the Quran involving various numerical structures is somewhat old news. The Muslims themselves celebrated this pattern in various speeches and booklets (Ahmed Deedat?), so that this becomes a negative at this stage is a bit of a paradox.

As for the other nonsense on the thread - no comment.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

good logic

Peace.
I also would like to say the following:

1- Translating Qoran in any language is a "hot potato" to most, especially those whose minds are made up.

2- Qoran, as GOD says is "Kitabun Markoom" i.e Numerically composed book!.

3-According to those who claim"GOD protects Qoran", which mushaf was revealed to the prophet, since they differ even if slightly? What proof do they have?

4-Since Qoran says GOD will keep sending messengers, those who follow their parents heritage and their own egos will never believe in any new messenger . Their mind is made up and their final messenger will never change from the one their parents believed in. Their new messenger will never come.

5-They pick and choose, ignoring clear instructions from GOD in Qoran that Qoran contains a proof,a reminder. It is for all generations. GOD said wait for the proof, He is also waiting. Now the proof is here. Wake up!!!!

6- They will have a last word,always,an excuse always, but the fact remains we now have a solid proof that Qoran was authored by GOD Alone and was locked mathematically for this technology/Scientific generation to check it out!!!.

Yes, of course everyone is entitled to their view,but Qoran has spoken clearly and loudly that it cannot be man made. It is authored by the Lord of the universe.
Glory be to GOD Alone.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Wakas

Quote from: good logic on July 07, 2016, 02:20:44 PM

2- Qoran, as GOD says is "Kitabun Markoom" i.e Numerically composed book!.

Evidence for this translation (part in bold)?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

imrankhawaja

Quote from: Wakas on July 07, 2016, 05:14:04 PM
Evidence for this translation (part in bold)?

no evidence infact,, just guess and wishes

good logic

Peace Wakas.
My evidence of course. Please refer to 1- Any translation is a "hot potato" for some. Never the less here is my evidence:

"Kitabun Markoom, yash haduhu Almukarraboon". Yes I witnessed it by checking it. GO ahead brother and check how GOD has locked His words mathematically. GOD calls it "Dhikr" i.e a reminder.:
4:41
إِنَّ الَّذينَ كَفَروا بِالذِّكرِ لَمّا جاءَهُم وَإِنَّهُ لَكِتٰبٌ عَزيزٌ
41:42
No falsehood could enter it, in the past or in the future;* a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy:
لا يَأتيهِ البٰطِلُ مِن بَينِ يَدَيهِ وَلا مِن خَلفِهِ تَنزيلٌ مِن حَكيمٍ حَميدٍ

Yes brother ,locked mathematically. Protected for all generations.
But of course ,it might not be your evidence.
GOD bless you.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Wakas

peace GL,

I am not talking about whether Quran has a mathematical code or not, I'm simply asking what evidence you have for translating the word "Markoom" the way you did, e.g. Quranic usage of the word evidence, classical arabic dictionary evidence etc.

So far, I'm assuming you just made it up.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]