Author Topic: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation  (Read 7015 times)

NewFreeMind

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 07:07:19 PM »
@Reee
1)   Putting a person in a status of impurity doesn?t necessarily mean that God is being evil. Humans urinate and we are supposed to clean ourselves after this, by your logic, God is being evil by putting as in a state of impurity when we urinate.
Menstruations have a purpose and the process simply puts the women in a state of ?impurity?.
2)   I am pretty sure menstruations was something dealt with since the Egyptian time and that there were safeguards in place that would prevent blood from running down women?s legs

@ManOfFaith
Decently intelligent people will also know that urine is considered a disinfectant and we have come to a point where many use it for cleansing purposes, yet common sense dictates that you clean yourself once you urinate. I know menstruations are the release of major nutrients and like urination, even what comes out as a result of menstruation is not impure. However, is the state that puts the person in a position that they shouldn?t be praying.

@hawk, like wakas said, there?s no explicit order about this and I agree but as I explained in my second post, one thing doesn?t necessarily be told explicitly in order for it to be forbidden or allowed, Quran seems to provide different methods and one is where two or more sets of verses, each providing a rule, if put together give birth to other set of rule/s.
In this scenario I?m referring to the link between the verse [5:6] and [2:222]

@Wakas
1)   Yes, like I said in the second post, [2:222] it is an instruction to the men about abstaining from intercourse with menstruating women
2)   I assume you?re saying that it doesn?t use the word impure and so I shouldn?t be using it; it states ?until they are cleansed/purified? , what do you think is their state before they are purified/cleansed? I believe is impure.
3)   ?
4)   Yes I am, I have stated that in my second post by putting it in brackets and saying that is my personal opinion adding the recitation/touching the Quran while impure using the verse [5:6] of the Quran. However, if it makes it easier to understand the real topic, then please ignore that section and simply focus on the praying section, which is stated in the verse.

 
Like I said earlier, if something isn?t said explicitly, doesn?t mean it?s not forbidden or allowed. Verse [2:222] doesn?t explicitly say not to have intercourse, yet this seems to be a view many agree on.
In my opinion, the verse [2:222] provides two sets of info:
-   It tells the reader that men shouldn?t approach women during this period (by that I mean not have intercourse)
-   It tells the reader that women during this period are not pure(not in a bad way for those who are going to attack this)
The second piece of info (about the state of women), to me can be linked to the verse [5:6], which tells the reader that a person should purify themselves before they stand up for prayer.


Man of Faith

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 08:57:02 PM »
New Free Mind,

So how logical is it that you argue they should not be praying if you admit it is not an impurity?

Be well
Amenuel
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hanslan

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 11:38:49 PM »
Everything is llowed towomen when  menstruating according to the Qur'an. It is the men that are restricted fromapproaching them. To women nothing is forbidden and it is to them than when they are through with the menses who allowed again to approach them.

Read very carefully and notice what you read and is written and not what you have of previous ideas inyour mind. It is peaking to men about a question they formulated regarding their attitude to women when they have the menses and that is what is answered. And women are not ordered anything not prohibited anything at all,not even approaching the men. It is the men that are prohibited something.

Salaam

Agree 100%.  Now women, pls come to men when you're menstruating :)

NewFreeMind

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 01:48:39 AM »
New Free Mind,

So how logical is it that you argue they should not be praying if you admit it is not an impurity?

Be well
Amenuel


Please read what I said in response to your previous comment, I have elaborated on the definition of impurity and have given you a clear example.

Menstruation isn't impure in a bad way (e.g something dirty,contaminated,filled with disease), it's simply a process of fluid release that women's body goes through (without going much into details), I told you then that so is urination, which isn't a fluid filled with disease or contaminated (to the point is used as disinfectant and cleansing product in some situations).

Having said that, the point I made to you was that when it comes to urination, we have to cleanse ourselves and common sense dictates that you are impure in such state(if you for example urinate in your underwear or not clean yourself properly after urination), so should be menstruation.

I hope it's clear.

huruf

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 08:51:33 AM »
"So should be menstruation"?

When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation when he said was before salaat if you hav gone to relieve yourslef or had relations you must wash in order to pray salaat. He did forget, didn't He? Or is it that women are not important at all and therefore no need to mention anything concerning them.

And if it is a question of women being impure, why on earth at the end of the aya says:
" For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." This pure and clean is not in feminine but in masculine or generic, that is, it does not refer to women, but to men or at most to both, but it is not to women. If the whole thing is a question of impurity of menses, then it should have been women the subject of purification.

On the other hand it is absolutely rediculous to deduce from this aya that women are impure for praying, but that it is only when they are "purified" that their husbands cn approach them when precisely sexual relations is one of the things that require ritual washing.

I think that many people here are living in the ritual territories of judaism and not in the revelaed Qur'an.

Qur'an is not talmud nor ritualism. it is urity, real purity no ritualism.

Salaam

hawk99

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 01:10:22 PM »
"So should be menstruation"?

When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation when he said was before salaat if you hav gone to relieve yourslef or had relations you must wash in order to pray salaat. He did forget, didn't He? Or is it that women are not important at all and therefore no need to mention anything concerning them.

And if it is a question of women being impure, why on earth at the end of the aya says:
" For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." This pure and clean is not in feminine but in masculine or generic, that is, it does not refer to women, but to men or at most to both, but it is not to women. If the whole thing is a question of impurity of menses, then it should have been women the subject of purification.

On the other hand it is absolutely rediculous to deduce from this aya that women are impure for praying, but that it is only when they are "purified" that their husbands cn approach them when precisely sexual relations is one of the things that require ritual washing.

I think that many people here are living in the ritual territories of judaism and not in the revelaed Qur'an.

Qur'an is not talmud nor ritualism. it is urity, real purity no ritualism.

Salaam

Well said.
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Wakas

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 03:08:54 PM »
what do you think is their state before they are purified/cleansed? I believe is impure.

Perhaps we can approach the argument using another route:

For sake of argument, let's say they are in an impure "state" during menses. Your argument is:

impure state ---> cannot uphold salat, read/touch Quran

5:6 mentions various things that require ablution, in other words, if you are XYZ do ablution then you can uphold salat etc.

Quote from: NFM
[5:6] Talks about ablution, a purification act that is required before pray. Now, if the women, according to [2:222] is not pure and menstruation constantly keep the women in that state; [5:6] will not help them purify and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to pray(recite/touch Quran by extension, my personal opinion).

5:6 cites being ill as one "state" that requires ablution in order to uphold the salat. They are still required to uphold the salat even if they are ill.

Does ablution eliminate their illness? Yes/No.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

NewFreeMind

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2016, 01:58:45 AM »
Perhaps we can approach the argument using another route:

For sake of argument, let's say they are in an impure "state" during menses. Your argument is:

impure state ---> cannot uphold salat, read/touch Quran

5:6 mentions various things that require ablution, in other words, if you are XYZ do ablution then you can uphold salat etc.

5:6 cites being ill as one "state" that requires ablution in order to uphold the salat. They are still required to uphold the salat even if they are ill.

Does ablution eliminate their illness? Yes/No.

Well explained Wakas, I understand your approach and agree with it.

If I understand this correctly, there's no rule in the Quran, preventing a women from praying,touching/reciting the Quran, while in a state of menstruations.

I only came across one verse in the Quran that tells what to do when a woman is having her periods, verse [2:222],which tells men not to approach them. Considering what you and many said earlier about something needing to be explicit in order for it to be applied, what does the verse [2:222] refer to as it's not stating anything specific, it's simply saying to stay away from women,which can mean a variety of things.



reel

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2016, 02:22:06 AM »
Quote
I found only one verse in the Quran that talks about menstruation [2:222], however it doesn't say anything about forbidding prays
What's the ruling?
I'll pm you on this. It is not wrong though.
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huruf

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Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2016, 05:31:07 AM »
To purify anything does not mean that before it wa impure, it means simple it can be purer. God purifies prophets, does that mean that the were impure previously? No, it means God purifies them more, God purifies them for the purposeof being prophets.

And that is the question about purity. Women during ense are not impure,but it is impure for their emn to approach them and cause them inconvenience. Gd purifies 3isa's name, does that mean that the anme was impure?
to cleanse someone of somethig does not mean that there was nanything impure either ritually or spiritually about it.

Women, when they get rid, clear of the menes women are purified for the business of men approaching them, not for any other business. When somethig or someone is purified is for something specific. A women may undergo a diet of purification for the purpose of getting pregnant. She is not impure, si es purifying for a task. A boxermay undergo ratment to get a body free of toxines. Is he impure before that, yes he is to a certain extent for the urpose of being a boser but not for any other purpose.

In a laboratory subtances of many kinds ar contantly urified, not because there is impurity  in them universally bur for the purpose of using them for the obtention of whatever things we may want to obtain, and what is the fenomenon or the compound that we want to obtain determines whether the element is pure for that purpose or not.

So women with the menses are impure for what? Formen approaching them,not for anything else and it was uniquely about that that the prophet was asked, not about any theoretical univeral impurity for the holy holy rites.

Only God is pure. Everything else lives or exists in a state of relative purity or impurity. And whenn God praises purity He alway refers to moral purity, purity of motive, purity of purpose, something on which everybody, must always strive and will never become absolutely pure, but will, God willing, attain to greater purity.

Will not having mmenses bring women to greater purity. Definitely not, but the ending of the menses will make purer for the men to approach them.


Salaam