Author Topic: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation  (Read 7011 times)

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« on: May 25, 2016, 04:58:54 AM »
Hello everyone,

I was this discussion with a friend and it got me really curious; I would like to know your opinion on this matter.

The discussion was that women can't pray,recite the Quran or touch it during menstruation.

I found only one verse in the Quran that talks about menstruation [2:222], however it doesn't say anything about forbidding prays
What's the ruling?

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11478
  • Karma +14/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 06:56:55 AM »
My understanding is: if it's not explicitly prohibited in Quran then it is allowed. One could make an indirect argument, based on other reasoning/principles etc but whether it would be a sound argument is another matter. Personally, I have not seen a sound argument.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 08:20:57 AM »
Sometime we need to make indirect arguments because one verse,when connected to another verse, brings to life a new set of information, that allow you to come to a conclusion, even if is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran.

For example:

[2:222] states that men should stay away from women during their menstruations as they are not pure;(I feel like the verse tells you that men should have any sexual contact with women in that state and it also tells the reader that such states puts the women in an impure state,which then can be linked with [5:6]) however this doesn't say anything about women not having the possibility to pray or touch/recite the Quran.

[5:6] Talks about ablution, a purification act that is required before pray. Now, if the women, according to [2:222] is not pure and menstruation constantly keep the women in that state; [5:6] will not help them purify and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to pray(recite/touch Quran by extension, my personal opinion).

Reee

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 169
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 09:55:57 AM »
In case the Qur'an is not clear, I prefer to use the "other Qur'an": Reality. And there, I find two points:

- menstruation is a God-given status, so why should God put half of humanity in a status of impurity?
- Nowadays, we have tampons, so while in times of Mohamed, the blood was running down the womens' legs, today that is no issue.
الله اكبر من الاديان

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
  • Karma +114/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 10:15:30 AM »

I was this discussion with a friend and it got me really curious; I would like to know your opinion on this matter.

The discussion was that women can't pray,recite the Quran or touch it during menstruation.

I found only one verse in the Quran that talks about menstruation [2:222], however it doesn't say anything about forbidding prays
What's the ruling?

Yes it's true, no religious ritual can be performed by women during menstruation.. women should be forbidden to do any ritual during their menstruation period or even being nearby and touch any idol or holy object (such as quran, black cube, black stone). According to Arabic / Mecan tradition which handed down for generations..

Manaf (Arabic: مناف‎‎) was another Meccan god who is thought to be a sun-god. His idol was caressed by women. Menstruating women were forbidden from coming near his idol. The Meccans were accustomed to name their children Abd Manaf. Muhammad's great-great-grandfather's name was Abd Manaf which means "slave of Manaf".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manaf_(deity)

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
  • Karma +114/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2016, 10:19:16 AM »
In case the Qur'an is not clear, I prefer to use the "other Qur'an": Reality. And there, I find two points:
- menstruation is a God-given status, so why should God put half of humanity in a status of impurity?
I don't think the true God ever did that..

Some people do and they claimed that it's coming from their god.. and their god is the truest god.... according to them..

Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 11:17:55 AM »
Decently intelligent people know menstruation is a natural part of the female functionality of the reproductive system when an egg from the ovary is not leading to pregnancy and rather released out of the body. It might look uninviting what comes out, but it is hardly hazardous taking what it contains, i.e. blood and mucosal tissue from the inner lining of the uterus. Personally I would prefer not to have intercourse during this period and it will not lead to pregnancy.

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6502
  • Karma +1/-1
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 12:36:27 PM »
Everything is llowed towomen when  menstruating according to the Qur'an. It is the men that are restricted fromapproaching them. To women nothing is forbidden and it is to them than when they are through with the menses who allowed again to approach them.

Read very carefully and notice what you read and is written and not what you have of previous ideas inyour mind. It is peaking to men about a question they formulated regarding their attitude to women when they have the menses and that is what is answered. And women are not ordered anything not prohibited anything at all,not even approaching the men. It is the men that are prohibited something.

Salaam

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • Karma +3/-0
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 01:15:51 PM »
Peace NewFreeMind, there is no Quranic basis restricting women from praying,
or leading the prayer, fasting, making hajj, making dua, going shopping, driving cars or
just staring out the window   :) only sexual intercourse is forbidden during her menses!




                                 8)
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11478
  • Karma +14/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 02:33:22 PM »
[2:222] states that men should stay away from women during their menstruations as they are not pure...

Now, if the women, according to [2:222] is not pure...

Are you sure it says that?

The actual Arabic:
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=222#(2:222:1)

1) it is an instruction to the men
2) it actually says "...until / when they are purified/cleansed...". THR/purify/cleanse is a word used frequently in Quran for men/women (in fact, at the end of 2:222 it used in the masculine plural).
3) 2:222 doesn't prohibit anything for women during menses, nor does anywhere else in Quran
4) by using 5:6 you have assumed equivalence of "upholding/establishing the salat" with touching/reading Quran.

As I said I have not seen a sound argument so far. It's fine to have this as a personal opinion, but to claim something is prohibited is a very strong statement, and extremely dangerous for one who is concerned about being held to account by God. Please note, I'm not saying you are saying its prohibited.

My personal view is it is not prohibited, and it is upto the women to choose if it applies to them. For example each woman will experience menses differently, for some it is a minor annoyance, for others it can be significantly problematic.
This subjectivity is also in the ablution verses, e.g. it is the person doing ablution to determine which state (and to what degree) applies to them.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 07:07:19 PM »
@Reee
1)   Putting a person in a status of impurity doesn?t necessarily mean that God is being evil. Humans urinate and we are supposed to clean ourselves after this, by your logic, God is being evil by putting as in a state of impurity when we urinate.
Menstruations have a purpose and the process simply puts the women in a state of ?impurity?.
2)   I am pretty sure menstruations was something dealt with since the Egyptian time and that there were safeguards in place that would prevent blood from running down women?s legs

@ManOfFaith
Decently intelligent people will also know that urine is considered a disinfectant and we have come to a point where many use it for cleansing purposes, yet common sense dictates that you clean yourself once you urinate. I know menstruations are the release of major nutrients and like urination, even what comes out as a result of menstruation is not impure. However, is the state that puts the person in a position that they shouldn?t be praying.

@hawk, like wakas said, there?s no explicit order about this and I agree but as I explained in my second post, one thing doesn?t necessarily be told explicitly in order for it to be forbidden or allowed, Quran seems to provide different methods and one is where two or more sets of verses, each providing a rule, if put together give birth to other set of rule/s.
In this scenario I?m referring to the link between the verse [5:6] and [2:222]

@Wakas
1)   Yes, like I said in the second post, [2:222] it is an instruction to the men about abstaining from intercourse with menstruating women
2)   I assume you?re saying that it doesn?t use the word impure and so I shouldn?t be using it; it states ?until they are cleansed/purified? , what do you think is their state before they are purified/cleansed? I believe is impure.
3)   ?
4)   Yes I am, I have stated that in my second post by putting it in brackets and saying that is my personal opinion adding the recitation/touching the Quran while impure using the verse [5:6] of the Quran. However, if it makes it easier to understand the real topic, then please ignore that section and simply focus on the praying section, which is stated in the verse.

 
Like I said earlier, if something isn?t said explicitly, doesn?t mean it?s not forbidden or allowed. Verse [2:222] doesn?t explicitly say not to have intercourse, yet this seems to be a view many agree on.
In my opinion, the verse [2:222] provides two sets of info:
-   It tells the reader that men shouldn?t approach women during this period (by that I mean not have intercourse)
-   It tells the reader that women during this period are not pure(not in a bad way for those who are going to attack this)
The second piece of info (about the state of women), to me can be linked to the verse [5:6], which tells the reader that a person should purify themselves before they stand up for prayer.


Man of Faith

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 08:57:02 PM »
New Free Mind,

So how logical is it that you argue they should not be praying if you admit it is not an impurity?

Be well
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

hanslan

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 227
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 11:38:49 PM »
Everything is llowed towomen when  menstruating according to the Qur'an. It is the men that are restricted fromapproaching them. To women nothing is forbidden and it is to them than when they are through with the menses who allowed again to approach them.

Read very carefully and notice what you read and is written and not what you have of previous ideas inyour mind. It is peaking to men about a question they formulated regarding their attitude to women when they have the menses and that is what is answered. And women are not ordered anything not prohibited anything at all,not even approaching the men. It is the men that are prohibited something.

Salaam

Agree 100%.  Now women, pls come to men when you're menstruating :)

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 01:48:39 AM »
New Free Mind,

So how logical is it that you argue they should not be praying if you admit it is not an impurity?

Be well
Amenuel


Please read what I said in response to your previous comment, I have elaborated on the definition of impurity and have given you a clear example.

Menstruation isn't impure in a bad way (e.g something dirty,contaminated,filled with disease), it's simply a process of fluid release that women's body goes through (without going much into details), I told you then that so is urination, which isn't a fluid filled with disease or contaminated (to the point is used as disinfectant and cleansing product in some situations).

Having said that, the point I made to you was that when it comes to urination, we have to cleanse ourselves and common sense dictates that you are impure in such state(if you for example urinate in your underwear or not clean yourself properly after urination), so should be menstruation.

I hope it's clear.

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6502
  • Karma +1/-1
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 08:51:33 AM »
"So should be menstruation"?

When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation when he said was before salaat if you hav gone to relieve yourslef or had relations you must wash in order to pray salaat. He did forget, didn't He? Or is it that women are not important at all and therefore no need to mention anything concerning them.

And if it is a question of women being impure, why on earth at the end of the aya says:
" For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." This pure and clean is not in feminine but in masculine or generic, that is, it does not refer to women, but to men or at most to both, but it is not to women. If the whole thing is a question of impurity of menses, then it should have been women the subject of purification.

On the other hand it is absolutely rediculous to deduce from this aya that women are impure for praying, but that it is only when they are "purified" that their husbands cn approach them when precisely sexual relations is one of the things that require ritual washing.

I think that many people here are living in the ritual territories of judaism and not in the revelaed Qur'an.

Qur'an is not talmud nor ritualism. it is urity, real purity no ritualism.

Salaam

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • Karma +3/-0
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 01:10:22 PM »
"So should be menstruation"?

When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation when he said was before salaat if you hav gone to relieve yourslef or had relations you must wash in order to pray salaat. He did forget, didn't He? Or is it that women are not important at all and therefore no need to mention anything concerning them.

And if it is a question of women being impure, why on earth at the end of the aya says:
" For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." This pure and clean is not in feminine but in masculine or generic, that is, it does not refer to women, but to men or at most to both, but it is not to women. If the whole thing is a question of impurity of menses, then it should have been women the subject of purification.

On the other hand it is absolutely rediculous to deduce from this aya that women are impure for praying, but that it is only when they are "purified" that their husbands cn approach them when precisely sexual relations is one of the things that require ritual washing.

I think that many people here are living in the ritual territories of judaism and not in the revelaed Qur'an.

Qur'an is not talmud nor ritualism. it is urity, real purity no ritualism.

Salaam

Well said.
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11478
  • Karma +14/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 03:08:54 PM »
what do you think is their state before they are purified/cleansed? I believe is impure.

Perhaps we can approach the argument using another route:

For sake of argument, let's say they are in an impure "state" during menses. Your argument is:

impure state ---> cannot uphold salat, read/touch Quran

5:6 mentions various things that require ablution, in other words, if you are XYZ do ablution then you can uphold salat etc.

Quote from: NFM
[5:6] Talks about ablution, a purification act that is required before pray. Now, if the women, according to [2:222] is not pure and menstruation constantly keep the women in that state; [5:6] will not help them purify and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to pray(recite/touch Quran by extension, my personal opinion).

5:6 cites being ill as one "state" that requires ablution in order to uphold the salat. They are still required to uphold the salat even if they are ill.

Does ablution eliminate their illness? Yes/No.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2016, 01:58:45 AM »
Perhaps we can approach the argument using another route:

For sake of argument, let's say they are in an impure "state" during menses. Your argument is:

impure state ---> cannot uphold salat, read/touch Quran

5:6 mentions various things that require ablution, in other words, if you are XYZ do ablution then you can uphold salat etc.

5:6 cites being ill as one "state" that requires ablution in order to uphold the salat. They are still required to uphold the salat even if they are ill.

Does ablution eliminate their illness? Yes/No.

Well explained Wakas, I understand your approach and agree with it.

If I understand this correctly, there's no rule in the Quran, preventing a women from praying,touching/reciting the Quran, while in a state of menstruations.

I only came across one verse in the Quran that tells what to do when a woman is having her periods, verse [2:222],which tells men not to approach them. Considering what you and many said earlier about something needing to be explicit in order for it to be applied, what does the verse [2:222] refer to as it's not stating anything specific, it's simply saying to stay away from women,which can mean a variety of things.



reel

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1911
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2016, 02:22:06 AM »
Quote
I found only one verse in the Quran that talks about menstruation [2:222], however it doesn't say anything about forbidding prays
What's the ruling?
I'll pm you on this. It is not wrong though.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6502
  • Karma +1/-1
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2016, 05:31:07 AM »
To purify anything does not mean that before it wa impure, it means simple it can be purer. God purifies prophets, does that mean that the were impure previously? No, it means God purifies them more, God purifies them for the purposeof being prophets.

And that is the question about purity. Women during ense are not impure,but it is impure for their emn to approach them and cause them inconvenience. Gd purifies 3isa's name, does that mean that the anme was impure?
to cleanse someone of somethig does not mean that there was nanything impure either ritually or spiritually about it.

Women, when they get rid, clear of the menes women are purified for the business of men approaching them, not for any other business. When somethig or someone is purified is for something specific. A women may undergo a diet of purification for the purpose of getting pregnant. She is not impure, si es purifying for a task. A boxermay undergo ratment to get a body free of toxines. Is he impure before that, yes he is to a certain extent for the urpose of being a boser but not for any other purpose.

In a laboratory subtances of many kinds ar contantly urified, not because there is impurity  in them universally bur for the purpose of using them for the obtention of whatever things we may want to obtain, and what is the fenomenon or the compound that we want to obtain determines whether the element is pure for that purpose or not.

So women with the menses are impure for what? Formen approaching them,not for anything else and it was uniquely about that that the prophet was asked, not about any theoretical univeral impurity for the holy holy rites.

Only God is pure. Everything else lives or exists in a state of relative purity or impurity. And whenn God praises purity He alway refers to moral purity, purity of motive, purity of purpose, something on which everybody, must always strive and will never become absolutely pure, but will, God willing, attain to greater purity.

Will not having mmenses bring women to greater purity. Definitely not, but the ending of the menses will make purer for the men to approach them.


Salaam

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2016, 06:42:18 AM »
If you read my replies earlier, you will notices that I have, multiple times, explained what I mean by being impure and I have highlighted the fact that when I said the word "impure", I don't mean it to be in bad way but it seems like you keep thinking that I mean it in a bad way.

Having said that, after Wakas explained, I understand that ablution doesn't stop a women with menses from getting purer.

However, the comment about men not approaching women during their menstruation on the verse [2:222] doesn't explicitly mention that they have to stay away when it comes to intercourse; so how do you deduce that sexual intercourse is what is meant in that verse, as it can mean a variety of things such as:
-Approaching them at all
-Not being in the same room
-Trying to touch them
-Talk to them.
and so on...

Salaam

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6502
  • Karma +1/-1
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2016, 09:55:23 AM »
The aya says that menses are a nuisance, so take it anyway you like, it amounts to: do not be a nuisance to them when they do have already a nuisance with the menses. So just avoid whatever may inconvenience them, including sexual aproaches, since as far as I can see, those are not excluded and in fact get very near to the source of the inconvenience.

Salaam

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • Karma +3/-0
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2016, 01:58:49 PM »

Peace NewFreeMind,
Stay away from a woman during her period because it is harmful ( أَذًى ) 2/222
So the question becomes: how is a woman's menstrual cycle harmful to a man
and or to a woman.
    :hmm  I think sometimes it's better to do your own research
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2016, 03:25:49 AM »
The aya says that menses are a nuisance, so take it anyway you like, it amounts to: do not be a nuisance to them when they do have already a nuisance with the menses. So just avoid whatever may inconvenience them, including sexual aproaches, since as far as I can see, those are not excluded and in fact get very near to the source of the inconvenience.

Salaam

yes I am going to take it the way I like it as the above it's simply a contradiction of what you said earlier. In this aya, God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women while she's having menses.

Quote
When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation..

Was God, in the verse [2:222], too shy to mention not approaching a women for sexual intercourse while she's on menses?


Quote
Peace NewFreeMind,
Stay away from a woman during her period because it is harmful ( أَذًى ) 2/222
So the question becomes: how is a woman's menstrual cycle harmful to a man
and or to a woman.     :hmm  I think sometimes it's better to do your own research

actually it's not, research suggest that some women can find it uncomfortable and some can find it even more arousing during this period.
Additionally, if the woman does not find it uncomfortable, performing sexual acts it's not going to cause any issue.
Therefore, saying that menstrual cycle are harmful to a man is absurd (it can be uncomfortable to women but not harmful)

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6502
  • Karma +1/-1
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2016, 06:39:06 AM »
yes I am going to take it the way I like it as the above it's simply a contradiction of what you said earlier. In this aya, God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women while she's having menses.

Was God, in the verse [2:222], too shy to mention not approaching a women for sexual intercourse while she's on menses?


actually it's not, research suggest that some women can find it uncomfortable and some can find it even more arousing during this period.
Additionally, if the woman does not find it uncomfortable, performing sexual acts it's not going to cause any issue.
Therefore, saying that menstrual cycle are harmful to a man is absurd (it can be uncomfortable to women but not harmful)

I said from the very beginning and it can be easily verified reading the aya, that God is not ordering women anything in this aya. As far as that goes, women can do as they please. Nothing on them, as free as the wind.

It is men that are ordered. They are ordered:

 فَاعْتَزِلُوا النِّسَاءَ فِي الْمَحِيضِ ۖ وَلَا تَقْرَ‌بُوهُنَّ

"...keep away from the women during menstruation and do not get near them..."

You, Newfreemind, say:

"God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women"

If yu can explain to the gentlement how to perform sexual acts on a woman while keeping away from her and while not getting near her, I venture to predict that you will have a lot of thankful gentlemen for the tip.

On the other hand if what the Qur'an says does not have any sexual connotation (in spite of making physical contact impossible) it must inevitably have another connotation. Which is that connotation? Why should men avoid women and not gt near them while the menses. Woud it be something contagious? Would the women bite them? Would the blood splash them ?

Salaam



 


NewFreeMind

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2016, 06:55:48 AM »
I said from the very beginning and it can be easily verified reading the aya, that God is not ordering women anything in this aya. As far as that goes, women can do as they please. Nothing on them, as free as the wind.

It is men that are ordered. They are ordered:

 فَاعْتَزِلُوا النِّسَاءَ فِي الْمَحِيضِ ۖ وَلَا تَقْرَ‌بُوهُنَّ

"...keep away from the women during menstruation and do not get near them..."

You, Newfreemind, say:

"God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women"

If yu can explain to the gentlement how to perform sexual acts on a woman while keeping away from her and while not getting near her, I venture to predict that you will have a lot of thankful gentlemen for the tip.
On the other hand if what the Qur'an says does not have any sexual connotation (in spite of making physical contact impossible) it must inevitably have another connotation. Which is that connotation? Why should men avoid women and not gt near them while the menses. Woud it be something contagious? Would the women bite them? Would the blood splash them ?

Salaam

BOLD: That was brought up because you made the verse about sexual intercourse with the following statement

Quote from: huruf
So just avoid whatever may inconvenience them, including sexual aproaches, since as far as I can see, those are not excluded and in fact get very near to the source of the inconvenience.

UNDERLINE:I have clearly asked a similar question previously on the assumptions that you made about men not approaching women for intercourse.

Quote
However, the comment about men not approaching women during their menstruation on the verse [2:222] doesn't explicitly mention that they have to stay away when it comes to intercourse; so how do you deduce that sexual intercourse is what is meant in that verse, as it can mean a variety of things such as:
-Approaching them at all
-Not being in the same room
-Trying to touch them
-Talk to them.
and so on...

In the above, I asked the same thing... why is that you're assuming it has to be sexual intercourse when it's not explicitly said, it can also mean not approaching them at all, not talking to them or anything similar. However, you have emphasised on the act of sexual intercourse; I am simply confused as to why you choose this when it's not mentioned and according to your previous replies God can't be ignorant to forget to mention such things.

Salaam

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6502
  • Karma +1/-1
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2016, 07:37:29 AM »
BOLD: That was brought up because you made the verse about sexual intercourse with the following statement

UNDERLINE:I have clearly asked a similar question previously on the assumptions that you made about men not approaching women for intercourse.

In the above, I asked the same thing... why is that you're assuming it has to be sexual intercourse when it's not explicitly said, it can also mean not approaching them at all, not talking to them or anything similar. However, you have emphasised on the act of sexual intercourse; I am simply confused as to why you choose this when it's not mentioned and according to your previous replies God can't be ignorant to forget to mention such things.

Salaam

About the list you write ofthings it could mean, it is your list, about excluding sexual relations from the entence I will say it again: you cannot not get near the women if you do that, so you are already trespassing the command to keep off them and to not get near them. You do have to get near them if you are going to have intercourse. There is no way around that. It is not that I want this or that. In fact I could not care less, but in order to not include sexual intercourse (anybody can hardly get any nearer than that) the aya would have to be reformulated.

So there is no forgetting at all to mention sexual intercourse.it is already clear a it is, but if aproaching the women for sexual intercourse were allowed then it should have been explicitly mentionned. Because sexual intercourse is definitely getting as near the women as it gets and there is not way that you can get around that. Of all the other things you mentionned the question could still be open: How near  is it getting near?

As I also said before: the thing can be simpler: Dont bother them,don't inconvenience them, don't push them over, don't be a nuisance to them and that should of course include coming on them with sex demands.

This, like so many things in the Qur'an, are quite simple, matters of common sense, but must be mentionned because not everybody has as much common sense or is mindful of others' persons state of mind or temper. 


Salaam

Aries

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 296
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2016, 09:33:47 AM »
If you read my replies earlier, you will notices that I have, multiple times, explained what I mean by being impure and I have highlighted the fact that when I said the word "impure", I don't mean it to be in bad way but it seems like you keep thinking that I mean it in a bad way.

Having said that, after Wakas explained, I understand that ablution doesn't stop a women with menses from getting purer.

However, the comment about men not approaching women during their menstruation on the verse [2:222] doesn't explicitly mention that they have to stay away when it comes to intercourse; so how do you deduce that sexual intercourse is what is meant in that verse, as it can mean a variety of things such as:
-Approaching them at all
-Not being in the same room
-Trying to touch them
-Talk to them.
and so on...

Salaam

Hey, don't worry, don't have to explain every single word, I got your point and, well, indeed I think you have a point. I see the same root used to "purify" in 2.222 and 5.6. The Qur'an is all the time concerned about women and how to protect them, I believe God (Whounderstands what menstruation, pregnancy and birth are in all aspects: spiritually, personally, psicologically and physically) is just making things eassier for us. However, connecting both verses... i don't see it means that we can not pray or that we are dirty, I read: "You can take a rest, you woman, you manage so many things every single day". Think also about the hormonal madness during menstruation, He knows we need a rest. It's a gift to be a woman and a hard thing to be, so, girls, sit on the sofa and remember God from it as you want. Also keep your man away from you these days.... just as you need, don't you? Allah rocks