Poll

Is shamas the sun in the quran or something else?

The sun of course
4 (80%)
No way, no sun in the quran........
1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Is shamas the sun in the quran or something else? goes right and then left.  (Read 1088 times)

357

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A sun that goes right and then turns on its heals and goes left? or am i imagining it wrong!


18.17

Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave. Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

Can you please help explain.......... :confused:  Thanks in advance.



HP_TECH

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A sun that goes right and then turns on its heals and goes left? or am i imagining it wrong!


18.17

Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave. Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

Can you please help explain.......... :confused:  Thanks in advance.

18:17 And you (might) have seen the sun, when it rose, inclining away from their cave to the right, and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof. That (was) from (the) Signs (of) Allah. Whoever Allah guides and he (is) the guided one, and whoever He lets go astray then never you will find for him a protector, a guide.


And you (might) have seen the sun, when it rose, inclining away from their cave to the right,

The perspective is inside the cave which is facing in the eastern direction, in which case the sun will seem to incline in the right direction away from the cave and observant's range of sight.

and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof

Here the perspective is outside of the cave facing towards the opening which would be the opposite of the eastern direction: facing the western direction, in which the sun would be declining to the general direction of left away from the boys in the cave.


The sun is moving in western direction left and right change with perspective
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

357

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Quote
Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave.
Quote

both things happened while they lay in the midst of the cave!

18.86
until, when he reached THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found IT SET IN a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People:

shamas is not the sun , please think what the ayas are actually saying ..


 :peace:

progressive1993

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21:33 And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit.

36:40 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon. (Nor can the night outrun the day). Each of them is floating in its own orbit.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608640.msg410971#msg410971
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

herbman

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A sun that goes right and then turns on its heals and goes left? or am i imagining it wrong!


18.17

Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave. Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

Can you please help explain.......... :confused:  Thanks in advance.

Dear 357,

thanks for this question, this shows you are a truth seeker.

The problem in this verse is again the translation!
In modern arabic you would translate Al Yamine by on the right and Al Chimal by on the left.
This is inconsistent with the meaning of the verse, let's take the very same example:
The sun is rising on the right and sets down on the left.  If you have a minimum of critical thinking you will know that my sentence is not accurate, right and is meaning less!  Cause right and left does not mean anything and depends on a reference (e.g. my right, your left etc..)

So what you gonna look for now is how to translate Al Yamine and Al Chimale maybe East and West or North and South!

To give you a clue ancient arabs named one country Yemen and another one Cham (actual Sirya), Yemen is southern arabic peninsula thus Al Yamine stand for SOUTH and Cham (Sirya) is a crontraction of Chimal which is northern arabic peninsula!

Is that correct?
what the verse says:
18.17

Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the SOUTH from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the NORTH, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave. Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

So the Book here invite us for observation describing:
1/ the move of the sun moving from Northernmost position to south (summer solstice)
then
2/ the move of the sun from southernmost position to the north (winter solstice)

No where in the verse it says that this occur in one day but it shows the movement of the sun during one solar year!

Peace



herbman

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18:17 And you (might) have seen the sun, when it rose, inclining away from their cave to the right, and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof. That (was) from (the) Signs (of) Allah. Whoever Allah guides and he (is) the guided one, and whoever He lets go astray then never you will find for him a protector, a guide.


And you (might) have seen the sun, when it rose, inclining away from their cave to the right,

The perspective is inside the cave which is facing in the eastern direction, in which case the sun will seem to incline in the right direction away from the cave and observant's range of sight.

and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof

Here the perspective is outside of the cave facing towards the opening which would be the opposite of the eastern direction: facing the western direction, in which the sun would be declining to the general direction of left away from the boys in the cave.


The sun is moving in western direction left and right change with perspective

Hi,

Where do you see in the verse that the second perspective is outside of the cave facing towards the opening?

Please show evidence?

Thanks


HP_TECH

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Dear Herbman,

I do not have any significant evidence for my statement, and I probably should not have passed it off as a definitive infallible hypothesis. I certainly ope that it wasn't mistaken as such. What I used to come up to that conclusion was merely logic and critical thinking as you claim in your hypothesis.
Simply because, we know very clearly and we can witness anytime the sun rising from east and setting to the west, it seems more probable that the differing factor is perspective. This is similar to your conclusion however, your hypothetical perspective is not only spatial but also temporal.
Not only that, but it seems you also attempt to make the claim that left and right in Arabic, actually mean North and South.

I do not think my hypothesis is correct, but I genuinely doubt yours is either and this is not to foster confrontation among us, just to improve on our critical thinking and studiousness in Quran.

It is well established through out the text that l-yamini and l-shimali mean right and left.

Look at verse 16:48


16:48

Awa lam yaraw ila ma khalaqa Allahu min shay-in yatafayyao thilaluhu AAani alyameeni walshama-ili sujjadan lillahi wahum dakhiroona   

Have not they seen [towards] what Allah has created from a thing? Incline their shadows to the right and to the left, prostrating to Allah while they (are) humble?


According to YOUR translation this would indicate shadows incline to the south and north. However it does not make sense in physics/optics that an illuminating object traveling westward and facing the Northern direction can cause other objects below itself to cast shadows southward. Go stand outside and place a stick in an open place where the sun light cannot be blocked by buildings or other natural objects. The shadow will never cast southward.
This alone is enough to say that at least l-yamini in this verse does not correspond to south it just cannot. It would be highly illogical and disproving of our ability to successfully observe nature to claim otherwise.

This is but one example, the Quran has many more instances of the usage of the root words ya mim nun  and shin mim lam. They simply mean right and left.

I think it is innovative that you attempt to build on the same idea that perspective must be the issue, however, introducing more agents as translation error and duration of event(temporal factor) does not necessarily help us get to a sound conclusion. It rather adds unnecessary complexity (parsimony) and suggests the very ridiculous idea that Arabic is such a complex idiom that the people speaking it do not even know what left and right even is.

There are a few other flaws with your hypothesis. (Again my hypothesis could probably be utterly wrong too, I just want to arrive at a sound conclusion bereft of clear inconsistencies).

1)You say that left and right alone is meaningless but there is a clear reference in the verses which is the cave with the boys in it and the open space thereof..

2)Because we do have a clear reference point, I think to bring in the idea of the solstices is also not demonstrative of astronomical awareness as solar analemma shows us that from a specific vantage point throughout the "solar year" the sun does not completely change its position to any extreme directionality as north and south. Solar analemma cannot possibly be what we are being described in this verse as analemma is visualized by taking pictures of a celestial body from the same geographical location and at the same time each day for a year or whatever desired duration. This conflicts with what the verse describes because we clearly have a rising and setting. As seen emboldened in Surah18 Aya 17 below.

3)In the Verse we see a clear description of a sun rising and sun setting. This is what you are neglecting in your hypothesis. At this point realizing that the description is of a sunrise and sunset left and right become trivial and meaningless. All that needs to be adjusted is perspective. However the right perspective is paradigm-shifting.



I have made some highly simplistic diagrams to allow a better visualization of my hypothesis.







"and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof"



To remind everyone of the verses

18:17

Watara alshshamsa itha talaAAat tazawaru AAan kahfihim thata alyameeni wa-itha gharabat taqriduhum thata alshshimali wahum fee fajwatin minhu thalika min ayati Allahi man yahdi Allahu fahuwa almuhtadi waman yudlil falan tajida lahu waliyyan murshidan

And you (might) have seen the sun, when it rose, inclining away from their cave to the right, and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof. That (was) from (the) Signs (of) Allah. Whoever Allah guides and he (is) the guided one, and whoever He lets go astray then never you will find for him a protector, a guide.


18:18
Watahsabuhum ayqathan wahum ruqoodun wanuqallibuhum thata alyameeni wathata alshshimali wakalbuhum basitun thiraAAayhi bialwaseedi lawi ittalaAAta AAalayhim lawallayta minhum firaran walamuli/ta minhum ruAAban

And you (would) think them awake while they (were) asleep. And We turned them to the right and to the left, while their dog stretched his two forelegs at the entrance. If you had looked at them, you (would) have surely turned back from them (in) flight and surely you would have been filled by them (with) terror.
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

herbman

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nice pics and explanations but it wont help you in this verse.

18:17

Watara alshshamsa itha talaAAat tazawaru AAan kahfihim thata alyameeni wa-itha gharabat taqriduhum thata alshshimali wahum fee fajwatin minhu thalika min ayati Allahi man yahdi Allahu fahuwa almuhtadi waman yudlil falan tajida lahu waliyyan murshidan

And you (might) have seen the sun, when it rose, inclining away from their cave to the right, and when it set, passing away from them to the left while they (lay) in the open space thereof. That (was) from (the) Signs (of) Allah. Whoever Allah guides and he (is) the guided one, and whoever He lets go astray then never you will find for him a protector, a guide.

See what is in bold, that is a Sign from Allah.

Can you explain then what is the Sign in your explanation?

Thanks and peace to you.

HP_TECH

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I do not see the relevance of the question in this specific instance.
I do not know what you might think must satisfy as a Sign in this ayat, but the Signs of Allah are everything. It is pretty clear, alternation of night and day ships in the sea... the simplest things can be recognized as Signs by those who reason, have intellect and believe with certainty. The Signs need not to be grandiose things for those with vision.

The fact the sun is moving and returning to us daily brining us visibility is enough of a Sign.

2:164

Inna fee khalqi alssamawati waal-ardi waikhtilafi allayli waalnnahari waalfulki allatee tajree fee albahri bima yanfaAAu alnnasa wama anzala Allahu mina alssama-i min ma-in faahya bihi al-arda baAAda mawtiha wabaththa feeha min kulli dabbatin watasreefi alrriyahi waalssahabi almusakhkhari bayna alssama-i waal-ardi laayatin liqawmin yaAAqiloona

Indeed, in (the) creation (of) the heavens and the earth, and alternation of the night and the day, and the ships which sail in the sea with what benefits [the] people, and what (has) sent down Allah from the sky [of] water, giving life thereby (to) the earth after its death, and dispersing therein [of] every moving creature, and directing (of) the winds and the clouds [the] controlled between the sky and the earth, surely (are) Signs for a people who use their intellect.

13:1-3

Alif Laam Mim Ra. These (are) the Verses (of) the Book. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord (is) the truth, but most (of) the mankind (do) not believe.
Allah (is) the One Who raised the heavens without pillars that you see, then He established on the Throne and subjected the sun and the moon each running for a term appointed, He arranges the matter; He details the Signs so that you may in the meeting (with) your Lord believe with certainty.
And He (is) the One Who spread the earth, and placed in it firm mountains and rivers, and from all (of) the fruits He made in it pairs two. He covers the night (with) the day. Indeed, in that surely (are) Signs for a people who ponder.


Peace to you
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful