Why does God say We in some places the Quran ?

[Ervin]

The only explanation that I heard in the past is that in Arabic, We is sometimes used for royalty. However, in some places, God says I, so I think that We is meaning God and his Angels.

Anyway, can someone with better knowledge help me with understanding this?

Thanks

[Man of Faith]

We belong in God, this means plural is used.

[imrankhawaja]

The only explanation that I heard in the past is that in Arabic, We is sometimes used for royalty. However, in some places, God says I, so I think that We is meaning God and his Angels.

Anyway, can someone with better knowledge help me with understanding this?

Thanks

this is regarding the grammer..

in Arabic and Urdu you can use we for singular character but literally its not wrong , at that time emperors and royal people use "we" to indicate them.

a famous Bollywood actor raj kumar always use we in his dialogue ,, it is  we who run this bar, its we who saved you from prison,, something like that.

and other explaination of we if you refer it with angels its correct as well becoz angels are incontrol of every physical laws and duties assigned to them by God , but infact they are also created by God in the end meaning and addressings direct to God..

to him we belong and to him we will return..

[Comrox]

The only explanation that I heard in the past is that in Arabic, We is sometimes used for royalty. However, in some places, God says I, so I think that We is meaning God and his Angels.

Anyway, can someone with better knowledge help me with understanding this?

Thanks

Peace,

One explanation I read on a site (forget which one, it was a while ago) said that the "We" was used to demonstrate the supreme authority of God.

To me, the "We" also sounds a lot more encompassing of everything.

[Ervin]

Peace,

If WE is used instead of I, then why does God sometimes use I?

Thanks

[imrankhawaja]

Peace,

If WE is used instead of I, then why does God sometimes use I?

Thanks

its about the grammer nothing else. as we know the only authority is God but when he  directed something mighty we need to understand he use word "we" because its not really mean its God  who is doing everything with his hands.. somebody some laws are doing it but are directly in command of Allah laws of gravitational force. raining . air . death life .. everything is inn control of allah but when he addresses "I"

its only in case where there is no need to involve anybody...

like Allah said worship me... he never say worship us..

I m your only diety,,, not we are your only  diety...

and again the mighty signs .. it is we who created heavens and earth in six yoom.. its is we who created the sky and its we who are expanding it.. now see we can analyse its dark energy that is responsible for expanding the universe because scientist can only give this suitable name to that force which they recently discovered...

in my understanding its angels who are responsible for the expansion with the permission of their lord... that's how I understand these things... grammer nothing else..

allah knows best its my own understanding ..

[almarh0m]

Peace

The only explanation that I heard in the past is that in Arabic, We is sometimes used for royalty. However, in some places, God says I, so I think that We is meaning God and his Angels.

Anyway, can someone with better knowledge help me with understanding this?

Thanks

The best way to find out the use of "I" and "We" by Allah is to put up a couple of verses where Allah uses 'I' to refer to Himself and a couple other verses where Allah uses 'We'. From my own observation, Allah uses "I" when He alone directly speaking, whereas "We' is used when Allah speaks involving his creatures such as angels or other of the elements.

Peace

[huwa]

I'm thinking it might be Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Because it is said in a hadith that Allah created Prophet muhammad's soul/light before creating all else. You can search google and find that this is the case with him being created before everything else. Allah knows best!

[imrankhawaja]

I'm thinking it might be Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Because it is said in a hadith that Allah created Prophet muhammad's soul/light before creating all else. You can search google and find that this is the case with him being created before everything else. Allah knows best!

huwa , you know where you are leading by sayinng these words..
we = Allah + prophet

and soul /light what is this,,,  before creating everything else,, is it not a big big contradiction.
Allah said to us in quran the messengers are same human beings like we are...

about creation what do you know about creation , we come last in the creations of three mentioned beings dosent mean that Allah created everything for prophet muhammad.

if you fit we in this understanding it will leads you nowhere apart of making a partner in the creation of heavens and earth,,

did Allah say anytime he have any partners..

i dnt know when people are stop using some old historical books which are proven wrong from time to time still they want to take it as religious source..

example of a glass of pure milk,,, if u add a point of urine in it.. will it still get pure i hope no,,, nobody will gona drink it ,y should wel listenn those records in which there are lot of lies with some understanble truths..and these books are by historians not by Allah or prophet..

if something is not by Allah or his prophet the certifcation will not issue ... in our education system nobody will get admission if he have not certifified marks sheet.. so how dare these people to make law beside God,, just pray for them .

[alihawa]

The only explanation that I heard in the past is that in Arabic, We is sometimes used for royalty. However, in some places, God says I, so I think that We is meaning God and his Angels.

Anyway, can someone with better knowledge help me with understanding this?

Thanks

Dear Ervin,

please remember that Al Quran do come from ALLAH, but using Jibril as the link to send it to Muhammad. with this understanding in my mind, i can say Al Quran is the saying of Jibril to Muhammad by the command of ALLAH.

the main prove for this argument is

Q 2:97
Say: “Whoever is an enemy to Jibril, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of God, authenticating
what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers.”

the explanation that sometimes the word "We" are used in relation to some divine task is because the malaika and jibril are also involved in performing those tasks with ALLAH as the commander and initiator. So that Jibril used the word "We"

Q 30:47
And We have sent before you messengers to their people. So they came to them with clear proofs; then We took revenge on those
who were criminals. And it is binding upon Us to grant victory to the believers.

Q 30:51
And if We chose to send a wind and they see it turn yellow, they will continue to be rejecters after it.

Q 30:58
And We have put forth for the people in this Qur’an of every example. And if you come to them with a sign, those who rejected
will say: “You are bringing falsehood!”

but for the task or things that only involve God himself, Jibril used the word "He" and excluding himself and the malaika

Q 6:18
And He is the Supreme over His servants; and He is the Wise, the Expert.

Q 6:73
And He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth with the truth, and the day He says: “Be,” then it is! His saying is
truth; and to Him is the sovereignty the Day the horn is blown. Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Wise, the Expert.

Q 30:27
And He is the One who initiates the creation, then He repeats it, and this is easy for Him. And to Him is the highest example in
the heavens and the earth. And He is the Noble, the Wise.

Q 30:54
God is the One who has created you from weakness, then He made strength after the weakness, then He makes after the strength a
weakness and grey hair. He creates what He wills and He is the Knowledgeable, the Capable.

Q 2: 255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.

and many other verses such as 42:28, 23:80, 59:24 etc.

i hope it help.

may God increase our understanding

[HP_TECH]

Dear Ervin,

please remember that Al Quran do come from ALLAH, but using Jibril as the link to send it to Muhammad. with this understanding in my mind, i can say Al Quran is the saying of Jibril to Muhammad by the command of ALLAH.

the main prove for this argument is

Q 2:97
Say: ?Whoever is an enemy to Jibril, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of God, authenticating
what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers.?

the explanation that sometimes the word "We" are used in relation to some divine task is because the malaika and jibril are also involved in performing those tasks with ALLAH as the commander and initiator. So that Jibril used the word "We"

Q 30:47
And We have sent before you messengers to their people. So they came to them with clear proofs; then We took revenge on those
who were criminals. And it is binding upon Us to grant victory to the believers.

Q 30:51
And if We chose to send a wind and they see it turn yellow, they will continue to be rejecters after it.

Q 30:58
And We have put forth for the people in this Qur?an of every example. And if you come to them with a sign, those who rejected
will say: ?You are bringing falsehood!?

but for the task or things that only involve God himself, Jibril used the word "He" and excluding himself and the malaika

Q 6:18
And He is the Supreme over His servants; and He is the Wise, the Expert.

Q 6:73
And He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth with the truth, and the day He says: ?Be,? then it is! His saying is
truth; and to Him is the sovereignty the Day the horn is blown. Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Wise, the Expert.

Q 30:27
And He is the One who initiates the creation, then He repeats it, and this is easy for Him. And to Him is the highest example in
the heavens and the earth. And He is the Noble, the Wise.

Q 30:54
God is the One who has created you from weakness, then He made strength after the weakness, then He makes after the strength a
weakness and grey hair. He creates what He wills and He is the Knowledgeable, the Capable.

Q 2: 255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.

and many other verses such as 42:28, 23:80, 59:24 etc.

i hope it help.

may God increase our understanding

Interesting perspective bro.

It is possible that in some occurrences were the Quran uses "We said", it might be referring to Jibril the malaika as mediums for Allah speaking. Since:

42:51 And not is for any human that Allah should speak to him except (by) revelation or from behind a veil or (by) sending a messenger then he reveals by His permission what He wills. Indeed, He (is) Most High, Most Wise.

This is most likely not the case as we explore some other exemplary verses:



2:34 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," [so] they prostrated except Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

How can Jibril refer to him and malaika in this case?

2:38 We said, "Go down from it all (of you), and when, comes to you from Me Guidance, then whoever follows My Guidance, [then] no fear (will be) on them and not they will grieve.

We is used and then me in the same phrase

2:52 Then We forgave you from after that, so that you may (be) grateful.

Allah is the sole Acceptor of repentance and Forgiver of the sin


2:58 And when We said, "Enter this town, then eat from wherever you wish[ed] abundantly, and enter the gate prostrating. And say, "Repentance, We will forgive for you your sins. And We will increase the good-doers (in reward)."


Allah alone is worthy to forgive the malaika do not bear such authority/responsibility to forgive peeople


6:94 And certainly you have come to Us alone as We created you (the) first time, and you have left whatever We bestowed (on) you behind your backs. And not We see with you your intercessors those whom you claimed that they (were) in your (matters) partners (with Allah). Indeed, have been severed (bonds) between you and is lost from you what you used to claim."
Allah is the Supreme creator


I think it may be possible there are a few verses where it might be implied that Jibril might be referring to himself and the malaika but the rest is strictly Allah using royal honorific We/Us/Our

[huwa]

Dear Ervin,

please remember that Al Quran do come from ALLAH, but using Jibril as the link to send it to Muhammad. with this understanding in my mind, i can say Al Quran is the saying of Jibril to Muhammad by the command of ALLAH.

the main prove for this argument is

Q 2:97
Say: ?Whoever is an enemy to Jibril, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of God, authenticating
what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers.?

the explanation that sometimes the word "We" are used in relation to some divine task is because the malaika and jibril are also involved in performing those tasks with ALLAH as the commander and initiator. So that Jibril used the word "We"

Q 30:47
And We have sent before you messengers to their people. So they came to them with clear proofs; then We took revenge on those
who were criminals. And it is binding upon Us to grant victory to the believers.

Q 30:51
And if We chose to send a wind and they see it turn yellow, they will continue to be rejecters after it.

Q 30:58
And We have put forth for the people in this Qur?an of every example. And if you come to them with a sign, those who rejected
will say: ?You are bringing falsehood!?

but for the task or things that only involve God himself, Jibril used the word "He" and excluding himself and the malaika

Q 6:18
And He is the Supreme over His servants; and He is the Wise, the Expert.

Q 6:73
And He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth with the truth, and the day He says: ?Be,? then it is! His saying is
truth; and to Him is the sovereignty the Day the horn is blown. Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Wise, the Expert.

Q 30:27
And He is the One who initiates the creation, then He repeats it, and this is easy for Him. And to Him is the highest example in
the heavens and the earth. And He is the Noble, the Wise.

Q 30:54
God is the One who has created you from weakness, then He made strength after the weakness, then He makes after the strength a
weakness and grey hair. He creates what He wills and He is the Knowledgeable, the Capable.

Q 2: 255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.

and many other verses such as 42:28, 23:80, 59:24 etc.

i hope it help.

may God increase our understanding

It can't be gabriel, explain verse 53:9, where apparently Muhammad (pbuh) went to meet allah and gabriel could not go with prophet. Because gabriel could not pass the seventh heaven and will burn to dust if he does. That means only Prophet knew of those verses directly from allah. Because only Prophet and allah were present at that time. And allah knows best of course.

[alihawa]

salam HP_TECH,

thank you for your input.

i will present some arguments about those verses, but i dont dare to claim that it must be true, and if you can give a good explanation, i will follow it. i know my arguments might sounds likeno more than just a speculation, but i think it is better than to accuse that there is a grammatical or logical error in Quran.

Interesting perspective bro.

It is possible that in some occurrences were the Quran uses "We said", it might be referring to Jibril the malaika as mediums for Allah speaking. Since:

42:51 And not is for any human that Allah should speak to him except (by) revelation or from behind a veil or (by) sending a messenger then he reveals by His permission what He wills. Indeed, He (is) Most High, Most Wise.

what i mean by "We" is used by Jibril when the malaika and jibril are also involved in performing the tasks with ALLAH as the commander and initiator, so it includes ALLAH, Jibril and malaika, not just Jibril and malaika.

This is most likely not the case as we explore some other exemplary verses:
2:34 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," [so] they prostrated except Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

How can Jibril refer to him and malaika in this case?

in this case, can it be that the command from ALLAH to the angels to prostrate to Adam comes through Jibril? if that's the case then there is no grammatical/logical error in this verse.

2:38 We said, "Go down from it all (of you), and when, comes to you from Me Guidance, then whoever follows My Guidance, [then] no fear (will be) on them and not they will grieve.

We is used and then me in the same phrase

about the "We", can it mean that the command to go down from heaven is given to Adam through Jibril too?
about the "Me"  i think it emphasize that the guidance and kitab comes from ALLAH. this verse talk about transmitting info from ALLAH to Human without citing the medium (Jibril)

2:52 Then We forgave you from after that, so that you may (be) grateful.

Allah is the sole Acceptor of repentance and Forgiver of the sin

2:58 And when We said, "Enter this town, then eat from wherever you wish[ed] abundantly, and enter the gate prostrating. And say, "Repentance, We will forgive for you your sins. And We will increase the good-doers (in reward)."

Allah alone is worthy to forgive the malaika do not bear such authority/responsibility to forgive peeople

i fully agree with you that no one has the authority to forgive people except ALLAH. but i think ALLAH gives some of this authority to the ones He chose in these verses

Q 20:109
On that Day, no intercession will be of help, except for he whom the Almighty allows and accepts what he has to say.

Q 43:85-86
And blessed is the One who possesses the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them; and with
Him is the knowledge of the Hour, and to Him you will be returned.
And those whom they call on besides Him do not possess any intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth, and they
fully know.

do you think that it is possible that ALLAH granted malaika this authority since they always obey him?
or, do you think it is possible that the involvement of jibril or malaika in this forgiving case is just in informing the good news?
if that's the case then i find no grammatical or logical error in 2:52 and 2:58

6:94 And certainly you have come to Us alone as We created you (the) first time, and you have left whatever We bestowed (on) you behind your backs. And not We see with you your intercessors those whom you claimed that they (were) in your (matters) partners (with Allah). Indeed, have been severed (bonds) between you and is lost from you what you used to claim."
Allah is the Supreme creator

is it possible that in judgement day's court ALLAH is accompanied by Jibril and malaika?
is it possible that in human creation process, ALLAH is involving Jibril and malaika? (they are already created and they are PIC of the energy in the name of God)

[/quote]

I think it may be possible there are a few verses where it might be implied that Jibril might be referring to himself and the malaika but the rest is strictly Allah using royal honorific We/Us/Our

it might be brother, i just haven't found those verses with my limited capability. i hope you can help me in this matter.

may ALLAH increase our understanding and iman

[alihawa]

It can't be gabriel, explain verse 53:9, where apparently Muhammad (pbuh) went to meet allah and gabriel could not go with prophet. Because gabriel could not pass the seventh heaven and will burn to dust if he does. That means only Prophet knew of those verses directly from allah. Because only Prophet and allah were present at that time. And allah knows best of course.

salam huwa,

thank you for your input.

in my understanding Q 53: 5 - 18 is talking about the meeting between Muhammad and Jibril where Jibril give him revelations from ALLAH. it is not talking about the so called Isra Miraj. in fact, 53:8 clearly says that it Jibril who going down, not Muhammad going up.

let me put those verses

53:1 And as the star fell away.
53:2 Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
53:3 Nor does he speak from personal desire.
53:4 It is a divine inspiration.
53:5 He has been taught by the One mighty in power.
53:6 Free from any defect, he became stable.
53:7 While he was at the highest horizon.
53:8 Then he drew nearer by moving down.
53:9 Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer.
53:10 He then inspired to His servant what He inspired.
53:11 The heart did not invent what it saw.
53:12 Do you doubt him in what he saw?
53:13 And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
53:14 At the ultimate point.
53:15 Near it is the eternal Paradise.
53:16 The whole place was overwhelmed.
53:17 The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.
53:18 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord.

in these verses it seems like Jibril's are talking to the first followers of muhammad directly to convince them that they can trust Muhammad's teachings (Al Quran)

in my opinion, isra' mi'raj is the fake event required to justify big idol worhipping that currently going on and on. these verses imply that Muhammad never ascend to heaven
Q 17:89 -93
17:89 And We have dispatched to the people in this Qur?an from every example, but most of the people refuse to be anything but rejecters!
17:90 And they said: ?We will not believe unto you until you cause a spring of water to burst out of the ground?
17:91 ?Or that you have an estate of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it.?
17:92 ?Or that you make the heaven fall upon us in pieces as you claimed, or that you bring God and the angels before us.?
17:93 ?Or that you have a luxurious home, or that you can ascend into the heavens. And we will not believe in your ascension unless you bring for us a book that we can read.? Say: ?Glory be to my Lord. Am I anything other than a human messenger!?

may ALLAH increase our understanding and iman

[Man of Faith]

Hello,

No matter how you twist it and turn it and refer to ancient royal terms of referring to one high in the hierarchy, God/Rabb would not perform a grammatical error due to human vanity as if now God is One then you cannot logically use a plural to refer to a one count or it would be linguistically wrong. If you reflect upon it once or twice if you are wise then you realize that it is quite primitive of God to speak of Himself/Herself/Itself in plural just to boast the own might, as if it is not quite evident already for the one who applies contemplation. Even the mighty Goliath must have contracted a cold or flu some time during his life and probably not felt so strong, so anyone who applies contemplation could figure out too that the world has not really been designed to be friendly towards man, it is utterly corrupting and even our very bodies fight against us which was evident in Goliath who was very primitive and not so ascended spiritually.

The answer is quite simple, if plural is used in reference to what has been done then it includes that participants were involved, such as angels or prophets/messengers/insightful ones. And you know that the sectarian interpretation of Quran contradicts itself because in multiple sections of that writing it recurs that angels are handling Hell or carrying out missions on Earth and that means they are ACTIVELY ASSISTING GOD. You see it is utterly contradictorily.

This stems from a religious fanaticism of non-association with a Pagan deity that has been long-lived for millennia despite that the arguments contradicts itself on a larger scope.

And notice I am only speaking out of a purely logical reasoning and you see there is no counterargument against this. It is written out plainly for you.

Be well
Amenuel

[HP_TECH]

Salam Alihawa,

This is particularly in response to the below quote. Truthfully some of the other points you have made hold water but there is no stance against the forgiving argument.

i fully agree with you that no one has the authority to forgive people except ALLAH. but i think ALLAH gives some of this authority to the ones He chose in these verses

Q 20:109
On that Day, no intercession will be of help, except for he whom the Almighty allows and accepts what he has to say.

Q 43:85-86
And blessed is the One who possesses the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them; and with
Him is the knowledge of the Hour, and to Him you will be returned.
And those whom they call on besides Him do not possess any intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth, and they
fully know.

do you think that it is possible that ALLAH granted malaika this authority since they always obey him?
or, do you think it is possible that the involvement of jibril or malaika in this forgiving case is just in informing the good news?
if that's the case then i find no grammatical or logical error in 2:52 and 2:58

We really have to understand what the Quran is conveying by intercession.

40:7 Those who bear the Throne and who (are) around it glorify (the) praises (of) their Lord and believe in Him and ask forgiveness for those who believe, "Our Lord! You encompass all things (by Your) Mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your Way and save them (the) punishment (of) the Hellfire.
40:8 Our Lord! And admit them (to) Gardens (of) Eden which You have promised them and whoever (was) righteous among their fathers and their spouses and their offspring. Indeed You, You (are) the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

The Angels pray to Allah to forgive those who believe. This praying on others account is also known as intercession.

in?ter?ces?sion
ˌin(t)ərˈseSHən/
noun
the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
synonyms:   mediation, intermediation, arbitration, conciliation, negotiation; More
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"

Shiin-Fa-Ayn = to make even that which was odd, make double, pair, make a thing to be one of the pair, adjoin a thing to its like, provide a thing which was alone with another, protect, mediate, intercede, be an intercessor. shaf'un - pair, double. shafa'at - likeness/similarity, intercede or pray for a person.

But the Angels are not as the prayer clearly demonstrate in any position to do any forgiving contrary to what you would presume 2:52 and 2:58 are saying.

If you want to make the claim that the intercession is as in protection then that is no longer in support of your argument, because protection is not forgiving. It is true though, that whoever Allah chooses to forgive then the Angels will intercede to protect them from the punishment of the HellFire but that is not actively forgiving.

We understand that this authority of intercession is also given to the prophets as the prophet is encouraged to pray for those who come to him with charities and seek forgiveness from Allah. Although this does not mean that the intercessions of these authorities Prophets and Angels is automatically accepted, it is contingent on the person on who's behalf their interceding's repentance and sincerity. In fact, here are two examples of intercession being addressed in Quran:

9:80 Ask forgiveness for them or (do) not ask forgiveness for them. If you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, never will Allah forgive [for] them. That (is) because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah (does) not guide the people, the defiantly disobedient.
In what possible context can the Angels assist Allah in the forgiving of sins?
He Who Created and Judges is The One Forgives not His creations.

24:62 Only the believers (are) those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, and when they are with him for a matter (of) collective action, not they go until they (have) asked his permission. Indeed, those who ask your permission, those [those who] believe in Allah and His Messenger. So when they ask your permission for some affair of theirs, then give permission to whom you will among them, and ask forgiveness for them (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

I think this serves to prove that We is not referring to anyone but Allah.
Perhaps we cannot grasp the use of this particular grammar, but it does not mean we should assume anything different than what the Message itself conveys.

There is only One God, He is Supreme, He is the All-Mighty and All-Wise and Has Power and Dominion over all things and He shares no partner in His Dominion and He needs no one to protect Him.

In fact the righteous in their salat pray:
17:111 And say, "All Praise (is) for Allah the One Who has not taken a son and not is for Him a partner in the dominion, and not is for Him any protector out of weakness. And magnify Him (with all) magnificence."

Again Allah needs no assistance to forgive His creations, He alone is worthy to forgive you.

74:56 And not will pay heed except that wills Allah. He (is) worthy to be feared, and worthy to forgive.

Another point is that the Angels themselves will receive judgement. So how can they be partners in forgiving of your sins if they themselves are subject to the Judgement?

Let?s take a look at one of the descriptions of Judgement Day.

Disbelievers destination:

39:71 And (will) be driven those who disbelieve to Hell (in) groups until when they reach it, (will) be opened its gates and (will) say to them its keepers, "Did not come to you Messengers from you reciting to you (the) Verses (of) your Lord and warning you (of the) meeting (of) your Day this?" They (will) say, "Yes!" But has been justified (the) word (of) punishment against the disbelievers.
39:72 It will be said, "Enter (the) gates (of) Hell (to) abide eternally therein, and wretched is (the) abode (of) the arrogant."

Fearful/Conscious/Righteous Destination:

39:73 And (will) be driven those who feared their Lord, to Paradise (in) groups until when they reach it and (will) be opened its gates and (will) say to them its keepers, "Peace be upon you, you have done well, so enter it (to) abide eternally."
39:74 And they will say, "All praise (be) to Allah, Who has fulfilled for us His promise and has made us inherit the earth, we may settle [from] (in) Paradise wherever we wish. So excellent (is the) reward (of) the workers."

Angels Judgement:

And you will see the Angels surrounding [from] around the Throne glorifying (the) praise (of) their Lord. And (will) be judged between them in truth, and it will be said, "All praise be to Allah, (the) Lord (of) the worlds."



Who knows how thin the line is between recognizing the Angels as a Sign and their abilities and involvement in serving Allah in the regulation of the affairs and making association, but I do not want to find out. This is what I am particularly troubled with, because in the Hereafter this will occur:

34:40 And (the) Day He will gather them all, then He will say to the Angels, "Were these you they were worshipping?"
34:41 They will say, "Glory be to You (are) our Protector, not them. Nay, they used (to) worship the jinn, most of them in them (were) believers."
34:42 But today not possess power some of you on others to benefit and not to harm, and We will say to those who wronged, "Taste (the) punishment (of) the Fire which you used to [it] deny."

If you think about it when the polytheists are associating Isa with Allah, they are not worshipping/serving Isa, they are worshipping/serving the shaytan/ or their own desires or the entities responsible for deceiving them. The prophets and Isa will deny the worshipping/serving of them by the polytheists.

So it is possible that in the same way we can be deceived by these shaytan/ desires or entities(jinn) to associate with Allah. Like the example above the Angels will deny the worshipping/serving of them by the polytheists.

At the very least what my argument is conveying is that it is a stretch to assume We refers to Allah and the Angels in these particular cases which deal with Allah's Supremacy and Dominion and Authority.

At the most it is saying that assuming that We is referring to Allah and anyone else might be a grave association worthy of Hell.

Looking forward to your calculated thought-out response


Peace brother 

[alihawa]

Salam Alihawa,

This is particularly in response to the below quote. Truthfully some of the other points you have made hold water but there is no stance against the forgiving argument.


We really have to understand what the Quran is conveying by intercession.

40:7 Those who bear the Throne and who (are) around it glorify (the) praises (of) their Lord and believe in Him and ask forgiveness for those who believe, "Our Lord! You encompass all things (by Your) Mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your Way and save them (the) punishment (of) the Hellfire.
40:8 Our Lord! And admit them (to) Gardens (of) Eden which You have promised them and whoever (was) righteous among their fathers and their spouses and their offspring. Indeed You, You (are) the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

The Angels pray to Allah to forgive those who believe. This praying on others account is also known as intercession.

in?ter?ces?sion
ˌin(t)ərˈseSHən/
noun
the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
synonyms:   mediation, intermediation, arbitration, conciliation, negotiation; More
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"

Shiin-Fa-Ayn = to make even that which was odd, make double, pair, make a thing to be one of the pair, adjoin a thing to its like, provide a thing which was alone with another, protect, mediate, intercede, be an intercessor. shaf'un - pair, double. shafa'at - likeness/similarity, intercede or pray for a person.

But the Angels are not as the prayer clearly demonstrate in any position to do any forgiving contrary to what you would presume 2:52 and 2:58 are saying.

If you want to make the claim that the intercession is as in protection then that is no longer in support of your argument, because protection is not forgiving. It is true though, that whoever Allah chooses to forgive then the Angels will intercede to protect them from the punishment of the HellFire but that is not actively forgiving.

We understand that this authority of intercession is also given to the prophets as the prophet is encouraged to pray for those who come to him with charities and seek forgiveness from Allah. Although this does not mean that the intercessions of these authorities Prophets and Angels is automatically accepted, it is contingent on the person on who's behalf their interceding's repentance and sincerity. In fact, here are two examples of intercession being addressed in Quran:

9:80 Ask forgiveness for them or (do) not ask forgiveness for them. If you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, never will Allah forgive [for] them. That (is) because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah (does) not guide the people, the defiantly disobedient.
In what possible context can the Angels assist Allah in the forgiving of sins?
He Who Created and Judges is The One Forgives not His creations.

24:62 Only the believers (are) those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, and when they are with him for a matter (of) collective action, not they go until they (have) asked his permission. Indeed, those who ask your permission, those [those who] believe in Allah and His Messenger. So when they ask your permission for some affair of theirs, then give permission to whom you will among them, and ask forgiveness for them (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

I think this serves to prove that We is not referring to anyone but Allah.
Perhaps we cannot grasp the use of this particular grammar, but it does not mean we should assume anything different than what the Message itself conveys.

There is only One God, He is Supreme, He is the All-Mighty and All-Wise and Has Power and Dominion over all things and He shares no partner in His Dominion and He needs no one to protect Him.

In fact the righteous in their salat pray:
17:111 And say, "All Praise (is) for Allah the One Who has not taken a son and not is for Him a partner in the dominion, and not is for Him any protector out of weakness. And magnify Him (with all) magnificence."

Again Allah needs no assistance to forgive His creations, He alone is worthy to forgive you.

74:56 And not will pay heed except that wills Allah. He (is) worthy to be feared, and worthy to forgive.

Another point is that the Angels themselves will receive judgement. So how can they be partners in forgiving of your sins if they themselves are subject to the Judgement?

Let’s take a look at one of the descriptions of Judgement Day.

Disbelievers destination:

39:71 And (will) be driven those who disbelieve to Hell (in) groups until when they reach it, (will) be opened its gates and (will) say to them its keepers, "Did not come to you Messengers from you reciting to you (the) Verses (of) your Lord and warning you (of the) meeting (of) your Day this?" They (will) say, "Yes!" But has been justified (the) word (of) punishment against the disbelievers.
39:72 It will be said, "Enter (the) gates (of) Hell (to) abide eternally therein, and wretched is (the) abode (of) the arrogant."

Fearful/Conscious/Righteous Destination:

39:73 And (will) be driven those who feared their Lord, to Paradise (in) groups until when they reach it and (will) be opened its gates and (will) say to them its keepers, "Peace be upon you, you have done well, so enter it (to) abide eternally."
39:74 And they will say, "All praise (be) to Allah, Who has fulfilled for us His promise and has made us inherit the earth, we may settle [from] (in) Paradise wherever we wish. So excellent (is the) reward (of) the workers."

Angels Judgement:

And you will see the Angels surrounding [from] around the Throne glorifying (the) praise (of) their Lord. And (will) be judged between them in truth, and it will be said, "All praise be to Allah, (the) Lord (of) the worlds."



Who knows how thin the line is between recognizing the Angels as a Sign and their abilities and involvement in serving Allah in the regulation of the affairs and making association, but I do not want to find out. This is what I am particularly troubled with, because in the Hereafter this will occur:

34:40 And (the) Day He will gather them all, then He will say to the Angels, "Were these you they were worshipping?"
34:41 They will say, "Glory be to You (are) our Protector, not them. Nay, they used (to) worship the jinn, most of them in them (were) believers."
34:42 But today not possess power some of you on others to benefit and not to harm, and We will say to those who wronged, "Taste (the) punishment (of) the Fire which you used to [it] deny."

If you think about it when the polytheists are associating Isa with Allah, they are not worshipping/serving Isa, they are worshipping/serving the shaytan/ or their own desires or the entities responsible for deceiving them. The prophets and Isa will deny the worshipping/serving of them by the polytheists.

So it is possible that in the same way we can be deceived by these shaytan/ desires or entities(jinn) to associate with Allah. Like the example above the Angels will deny the worshipping/serving of them by the polytheists.

At the very least what my argument is conveying is that it is a stretch to assume We refers to Allah and the Angels in these particular cases which deal with Allah's Supremacy and Dominion and Authority.

At the most it is saying that assuming that We is referring to Allah and anyone else might be a grave association worthy of Hell.

Looking forward to your calculated thought-out response


Peace brother

salam HP tech,

thank you for your input. as stated on my previous post in this thread, all my answers before are just my best speculations because i refuse to accept that there are many grammatical or logical error in Quran.

i agree with you about the forgiving judgment must come from ALLAH himself. and i think that the only possible involvement of angel or jibril are in communication process and/or in proposing process (the authority that i mention on the previous post is the authority to propose, not to judge. why proposing needs authority? because nobody can even talk on that day except with His permission and those permission are already approved by ALLAH, because ALLAH keeps his promises).

yes, it might sound pathetic, but it is my best speculation at this moment

if you think those two chance are not possible too, then i have to look for the other options ......

so do you have any other solution to this problem brother? please share me your thought

[HP_TECH]

You don't have to refuse to accept anything. There is no ill in Quran.
I do not have a solution because there is no problem.

You only have a problem if you assume that We could refer to anyone but Allah.
Just as we should not speculate too much about the soul or follow that which we do not have any knowledge of, we should not speculate or assume there are grammatical errors or that We refers to Allah and the Angels in unison.

We want to say, yes probably it is Allah and the Angels because they obey all of Allah's commands, but that is only an assumption. Allah states that He is the Doer
Perhaps we just cannot grasp yet how the affairs are regulated by Him, but we cannot speculate/assume that We refers to anyone other than Allah alone.


85:13 Indeed He, He originates and repeats,
85:14 And He (is) the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Loving,
85:15 Owner (of) the Throne the Glorious,
85:16 Doer of what He intends.

[alihawa]

You don't have to refuse to accept anything. There is no ill in Quran.
I do not have a solution because there is no problem.

You only have a problem if you assume that We could refer to anyone but Allah.
Just as we should not speculate too much about the soul or follow that which we do not have any knowledge of, we should not speculate or assume there are grammatical errors or that We refers to Allah and the Angels in unison.

We want to say, yes probably it is Allah and the Angels because they obey all of Allah's commands, but that is only an assumption. Allah states that He is the Doer
Perhaps we just cannot grasp yet how the affairs are regulated by Him, but we cannot speculate/assume that We refers to anyone other than Allah alone.


85:13 Indeed He, He originates and repeats,
85:14 And He (is) the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Loving,
85:15 Owner (of) the Throne the Glorious,
85:16 Doer of what He intends.

thank you that is very thoughtful of you

i can see there is no real problem now, just a curiosity "Why does God say We in some places the Quran ?" just like the name of the this thread

i still wonder if there is a more logical explanation about this curiosity. at this moment, my answer to that curiosity is still the same.

May ALLAH increase our understanding and iman

[imrankhawaja]

in my opinion, isra' mi'raj is the fake event required to justify big idol worhipping that currently going on and on. these verses imply that Muhammad never ascend to heaven.

in your opinion isra and miraj are fake ,,, fair enough the starting of this chapter is telling the believers how (praised one) recieved revelation..  the isra and miraj event started from the middle of this chapter here some points for you to ponder.. and plz  before giving opinions verify your opinion in the light of quran,, here is your answer of your opinion, check these verses,,

53:13 And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
53:14 At the ultimate point.  ( ultimate point ,, where about)
53:15 Near it is the eternal Paradise.( eternal paradise cant be in earth)
53:16 The whole place was overwhelmed. (which place exactly)
53:17 The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.(where exactly eyes get trick)
53:18 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord. ( which signs , two discussed here as sidra tu muntaha(lot tree) and eternal paradise)..

chapter started from the way how prophet recieved revelation and ,, chapter link in another ocassion where prophet ascends to heavens ,,honestly  tell me one thing my brother do you really know how to study quran ,, or you have some doubt about the verses like flat earth...

[alihawa]

in your opinion isra and miraj are fake ,,, fair enough the starting of this chapter is telling the believers how (praised one) recieved revelation..  the isra and miraj event started from the middle of this chapter here some points for you to ponder.. and plz  before giving opinions verify your opinion in the light of quran,, here is your answer of your opinion, check these verses,,

53:13 And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
53:14 At the ultimate point.  ( ultimate point ,, where about)
53:15 Near it is the eternal Paradise.( eternal paradise cant be in earth)
53:16 The whole place was overwhelmed. (which place exactly)
53:17 The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.(where exactly eyes get trick)
53:18 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord. ( which signs , two discussed here as sidra tu muntaha(lot tree) and eternal paradise)..

chapter started from the way how prophet recieved revelation and ,, chapter link in another ocassion where prophet ascends to heavens ,,honestly  tell me one thing my brother do you really know how to study quran ,, or you have some doubt about the verses like flat earth...

Salam imran,

I think this discussion about isra miraj deserve its own thread, if it is not discussed already. What do you think?

[imrankhawaja]

Salam imran,

I think this discussion about isra miraj deserve its own thread, if it is not discussed already. What do you think?

w salam brother

its up to you wherever you want discussion, but its not a big deal to talk as these ayats clearly talking about two different occassion one is definately not regarding to earth. thats it

peace ,

[HP_TECH]

i still wonder if there is a more logical explanation about this curiosity. at this moment, my answer to that curiosity is still the same.

May ALLAH increase our understanding and iman

Are you familiar with the use of Royal We by religious authorities or monarchs?
It is a form of Nosism:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we  pluralis majestatis.  Check this wikipedia article.

Also look at pluralis excellentiae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_excellentiae stemming from Hebrew

If you are familiar with this then it shouldn't be hard to accept that these cultures adopted this notion of Royal We from Our Majesty.

[Man of Faith]

Illogical. And vanity, completely primitive.

[HP_TECH]

Illogical. And vanity, completely primitive.

I disagree with your statement. Allah is the Owner of Majesty, Honor and Glory and it does not denote vanity, but Exaltedness and Absolute Purity and Nobility and Regard.
Pluralis Majestasis and Pluralis Excellentiae are vanity when human beings like popes and monarchs use them to imitate The Most Gracious, not when Our Lord uses them. They are honorifics and to Allah belongs The Honor ALL.


Read these following ayaats in context karim denotes nobility, regard

12:31
Falamma samiAAat bimakrihinna arsalat ilayhinna waaAAtadat lahunna muttakaan waatat kulla wahidatin minhunna sikkeenan waqalati okhruj AAalayhinna falamma raaynahu akbarnahu waqattaAAna aydiyahunna waqulna hasha lillahi ma hatha basharan in hatha illa malakun kareemun
So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and she prepared for them a banquet and she gave each one of them a knife and she said, "Come out before them." Then when they saw they greatly admired him, and cut their hands, they said, "Forbid Allah, not (is) this a man not (is) this but an angel noble."

23:116
FataAAala Allahu almaliku alhaqqu la ilaha illa huwa rabbu alAAarshi alkareemi
So exalted is Allah, the King, the Truth. (There is) no god except Him, (the) Lord (of) the Throne Honorable.

Kaf-Ra-Miim = To be productive, generous, precious, valuable, honourable, noble, All-Generous, Most Generous


35:10
Man kana yureedu alAAizzata falillahi alAAizzatu jameeAAan ilayhi yasAAadu alkalimu alttayyibu waalAAamalu alssalihu yarfaAAuhu waallatheena yamkuroona alssayyi-ati lahum AAathabun shadeedun wamakru ola-ika huwa yabooru
Whoever [is] desires the honor, then for Allah (is) the Honor all. To Him ascends the words good, and the deed righteous raises it. But those who plot the evil, for them (is) a punishment severe, and (the) plotting (of) those - it (will) perish.

Ayn-Zay-Zay = mighty/potent/powerful/strong, noble/honourable/glorious, resisted/withstood, invincible, overcome (e.g. in argument), exalt, prevail, highly esteemed, precious, glory, "vanity", excellent, proud and hard manner, stern.
uzza - name of an idol of the pagan Arabs regarded by them as God's daughter.

'Azza (prf. 3rd. m. sing. asim. V): Prevailed.
'Azzaznaa (prf. 1st. pl. II): We strengthened.
Tu'izzu (impf. 2nd. m. pl. II): thou honour, confer honour and dignity.
'Izzan (v. n.): source of strength.
'Izzatun (v. n.): vain pride, false prestige or sense of self respect, might honour, power.
Al-Aziizun (act. pic. m. sing.): All-Mighty, One of the names of Allah, Unassailable, invincible, powerful in evidences and arguments, strong, mighty, heavy (with 'alaa: tell hard upon).
A'azzu (elative): more powerful, that occupies stronger and more respectable position.
A'izzatan (n. pl.): most respectable and powerful, its sing. is 'Aziiyun.


55:27
Wayabqa wajhu rabbika thoo aljalali waal-ikrami
But will remain (the) Face (of) your Lord, (the) Owner (of) Majesty and Honor.

55:78
Tabaraka ismu rabbika thee aljalali waal-ikrami
Blessed is (the) name (of) your Lord, Owner (of) Majesty and Honor.


aljalali= Majesty

Jiim-Lam-Lam = To be thick/gross/coarse/rough, rugged/rude/big/bulky, to be great (in size or estimation or rank or dignity), independent, glorious, majestic, to be old or advanced in age, also to be young or not of fit age [thus the verb bears two contradictory significations], firm or sound in judgement, to be eminent, noble or dignified, honourable, mighty, take the main part or portion of a thing, mount/ascend upon/cover a thing, to be exalted or magnificent, give much or many, to move about or shuffle a thing, sink or become depressed, sever/distressing/momentous/formidable.

Pluralis Majestasis

You said you were writing your own translation and you have been researching arabic and hebrew and have become somewhat of an expert.
Pluralis Excellentiae which is from ancient Hebrew grammar should be familiar to you?

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar/124._The_Various_Uses_of_the_Plural-form

[huwa]

Just found out ' nahnu' in aramaic means 'mommy' http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=n%29ny%20N&cits=all

This goes with my other post that 'ma' means 'mother'. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[fye]

There's a portion of the Quran that speaks those closets to ALLAH and angels holding his throne. Also the book of revelations in the bible speaks of martyrs under his foot or something???
Just know we is most likely ALLAH giving command to his angels and the science and laws of our world are made with balance for set purposes.

[AssadAsuad]

Salam,

From my understanding of 22:17 "Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness."(meaning that in some way, shape or form, the revelations sent to these groups were from Allah). If we look at the Avestan(magian ) texts and the Vedic(Sabean and those who associated w/ Allah) texts, we may be able to glean a meaning.

In the Avestas, there is the concept of Ahura Madza(One of the Beautiful names/ the Avesta Equivalent of Allah) and his Seven Amesha Spenta( I believe that these correspond to Michael, Jibril and the other so-called ArchAngels) please see this info from wikipedia page for further information:

Ahura Mazda → Middle Persian Ohrmazd (NP Hōrmuzd) is the only God.
Vohu Manah → MP: Wahman (NP Bahman) of cattle (and all animal creation)
A?a Vahi?ta → MP: Ardwahi?t (NP Urdībihi?t) of fire (and all other luminaries)
X?aθra Vairya → MP: ?ahrewar, of metals (and minerals)
Spənta Ārmaiti → MP: Spandarmad, of earth
Haurvatāt → MP: Hordād (NP Xurdād) of water(Harut)
Amərətāt → MP: Amurdād (NP Murdād) of plants(Marut)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amesha_Spenta

Only Allah truly knows, I'm interested in what everyone else's thoughts are.

[fye]

Hello the Quran rejects any equals to ALLAH he's the highest. Have you ever ran into any personal journals like the books of prophets from the king James bible that speak about the straying of people some books speak of war and wide spread fear and others simply speak of ingratitude.
This are journals kept to teach why some people make up things untrue in religion.

Why would ALLAH have an equal? Or why does this group sugar cost blasphemy?

[Man of Faith]

Even my interpretation of Quran does not *equal* Rabb with us. Rabb encompasses everything, but we are a share of that everything.

In magnitude Rabb is far greater than me or you, but it is like a shared platform, symbiotic, and Rabb does not have any reason to refer to each share as "slave". Rabb can use affectionate addressing for us.

Be well
Amenuel

[huwa]

Allah is mentioned in the quran 2662 times (according to quran code software). add each number to the corresponding number i.e 2+6+6+2 = 16. Then from each chapter read the 16th word starting from chronological order. This is what it comes up with:

and truth partner recited disbelief by among you that (you) man worship we more
lord (god) they were (be, exist) with the inspiration

using google translate and almaany website

It seems a little confusing. But please do your own research and come up with an outcome. And please tell us what you have found or if the above message is correct or not. Allah knows best

[fye]

Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!#!!!!!##!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[huwa]

What's wrong?

[fye]

Salaam

Do you see in context clues that ALLAH sent an Angel to do the "we" part?
Compared to verse related to planning which usually don't contain we.

Also defining "we" helps we who the party of ALLAH. Who's in the party of ALLAH? Do the angels count as believers? What part do you play?
Maybe ALLAH wishes to teach is to identify with the Quran?