Author Topic: Basic questions  (Read 3268 times)

sturtlaghari

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 12:50:45 PM »
Perhaps you would be so kind to point them out, since I can't find them.  Thank you.

Bender

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2016, 02:15:48 PM »
Perhaps you would be so kind to point them out, since I can't find them.  Thank you.

Hi,

With all due respect, I do not believe that you have pondered on your questions in just 3 minutes.

"How can "free will" operate to alter what has been predetermined?"
You have set up a free will, and you decided that that free will has to operate in predetermined way.
How should that be ever possible?
To me it looks like either we have no free will or a free will who is for real free.
I believe in the last case.

I am sure you can find the flaws on your own on the rest of your questions, just give them some more time then 3 minutes.






Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Man of Faith

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2016, 03:50:20 PM »
I thought of saving some of that time I waste writing the same thing over and over again and why I pointed in the direction of that URL. Well, I suppose I become better each time I try to explain.

Predestination does not innately exist but everything is determined while the timeline is being composed. If someone influential determines something then certain events may be seemingly predestined as the influential person affects future events. It is about being in control inside a shared platform. The explanation for exactly how that works can be rather complicated and it may help having graphical illustrations and a whiteboard.

Free will does exist to a great extent albeit if hit by (one finds themselves within) a so-called prophecy then it can result in involuntary action and they may strive for something they can give no explanation for except "something drives them to it". It is praiseworthy to recognize that something makes them do it as many are not even that, for example, 'Daesh' (ISIS) is following an ancient prophecy by Isaiah without knowing they actually fulfill one of the antagonist sides of it. That is the fate of being controlled unto a deed. If they were more bright-minded and awake they would obviously not have done so for their superior Spirit would have stopped them, but since they are not alive but dead they cannot recognize it. This is the definition of being a real slave to "God".

At least Jesus was able to know his destiny had been controlled by Isaiah when he said "my will is not my own but of the one who sent me" and that was in that he did everything he had been prophesied to do and it was also intended as a sign but also how the world works in reality, through the power of determination which is called faith, faith to have things happen. This is the real definition of faith.

People simply do not understand that as a collective we make up what is "God" and thus there is much willpower involved from multiple directions yet one and the same. So, the most influential beings in the unity have the greatest determination power. They are in control, and they are not the lifeless ones. They are also called Malekat in Arabic which is usually called Angels in English and together they make up what is called Rabb in Arabic. Rabb means morphologically 'Foundation-Giver' when breaking it down letter-by-letter and is kind of universal platform which is also alive in its own right; "Ya Rabb" used in Quran symbolizes that it is a personal address, but it may also be that you address the universe at whole (i.e. everything) in which you are a part.

No matter what, Rabb needs to be a constancy, something that is infinite or else there is no logical explanation. However, beyond this contradicting world it appears the Rabb has a hidden motive of growing truly conscious beings inside of its own image and this is possible to work out through logical deduction. Thus Rabb is expanding through these means and the growth does not lack a purpose like if Rabb had created everything as a mere entertainment to see how things would unravel. I always wondered why Rabb even bothered to create the world until I realized it is to expand by acquiring developed shares.

Wellness to you
Amenuel
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2016, 03:55:03 PM »
By the way, I also use the term "sky man" together with Ahmad Bilal on this forum. It definitely suits the deity in the Pagan cults which have a worldly portrayal of "God" and which is mostly predominant in the world.

Utterly that perception makes no sense of course.

Wellness to you
Amenuel
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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 08:44:25 AM »
Shalom Aleikhem Bender,

After a long time. Hope you are doing well.

Hi,

With all due respect, I do not believe that you have pondered on your questions in just 3 minutes.

"How can "free will" operate to alter what has been predetermined?"
You have set up a free will, and you decided that that free will has to operate in predetermined way.
How should that be ever possible?
To me it looks like either we have no free will or a free will who is for real free.
I believe in the last case.

I am sure you can find the flaws on your own on the rest of your questions, just give them some more time then 3 minutes.

I think you misinterpreted his question. He wasn't saying that "free will" itself if predetermined. He was saying that God already KNEW how it'll end for that person. Therefore, rendering free will IRRELEVANT and passing judgement ASININE!  If you still don't get it, let me provide the following example:

- You created a humanoid terminator style robot that makes decisions on it's own (FREE WILL)
- EVEN BEFORE MAKING THE ROBOT you KNEW that the robot will go shoot your mom in the face and kill her
- You make the robot, the robot runs to your mom and shoots her in the face killing her

The robot did it out of it's "free will". However, are you free of guilt? You made that robot knowing what it'd do after booting up. That could be held up in a court of law against you. As long as you confess to having full knowledge in advance and still went ahead with your plan to make the robot, you are partly responsible. In fact, between you and the robot, you had more "free will". You could have chosen not to make the robot and your mom would have been alive. But the robot didn't have that luxury. The robot's fat had only ONE outcome which you have foreseen.

What makes all of this more bizarre is that then you end up being the judge who sentences the robot to torture for it's crime!



@Sturtlaghari

What if God exists and is not good and not all that intelligent or truthful?


Peace
----------------- Student of Allah

faruk

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2016, 09:57:00 AM »


What was the question again?

Oh yeah it is in the title I guess "Heaven and Hell: Is it a fair deal?".

Let us look upon FreedomStands, his glorious countenance as he responds *golf silence*:

No. The Answer is No.

Amazing! FreedomStands answered perhaps faster than a Magic 8 Ball! How does he do it? I have the hots for him, that's for sure!

Why is the answer No?

Because it is not fair or just to create things and then threaten them and put them at risk. I am so sorry none of you could apparently think of that yourselves (I don't know if anyone did, I didn't read all the foolish things people were likely to have said with their lips hanging loosely).

Who said God is "fair" by your definitions? God is not "fair" or "just" by normal standards, nor is God as "kind" as you might hope. The proof of that is the ignorant state you mentioned. It is immediately cruel that God has left you in your limited awareness, and you're filled with difficult questions and might even feel lost and astray. Is an of that nice? Why doesn't God simply answer your question? How would you know the answer is right? Many times the confident ones are also delusional (oh you must think that means me!)

Is Heaven fair? No. Is existing fair? Nope. Is Hell fair? Nah. I'm running out ways to say Nein!

Do you think my answer is wrong? Let me know how I can be wrong.

God is the Ignorant one. Oh shoot, what new blasphemy has FreedomStands uttered?

What knowledge did Allah have before Allah created knowledge and information? Or was the "Knowledge" and Information not created, a partner along with God? So that if Pharoah is part of information, that Pharoah was with God from the beginning?

No, God is Pure, the Ignorant One, God knows NOTHING except what God generates, then it is "known" and then it becomes "unknown", and the Knowledge has no stability or eternity. In the beginning was Ignorance and God remains ignorant. What God is ignorant of, has no existence anywhere, that is evident, because if God knows something it exists, and if everything existed you would not be able to move or do anything. Thus all things are based on ignorance, without ignorance there could be no motion or action, and Ignorance is an important attribute of Allah, however despicable it seems to say it.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607786.msg375541#msg375541
39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Bender

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 02:25:12 PM »
Shalom Aleikhem Bender,

After a long time. Hope you are doing well.

Hi SoA,

I am fine thank you. How are you?

Quote
I think you misinterpreted his question. He wasn't saying that "free will" itself if predetermined. He was saying that God already KNEW how it'll end for that person. Therefore, rendering free will IRRELEVANT and passing judgement ASININE!  If you still don't get it, let me provide the following example:

- You created a humanoid terminator style robot that makes decisions on it's own (FREE WILL)
- EVEN BEFORE MAKING THE ROBOT you KNEW that the robot will go shoot your mom in the face and kill her
- You make the robot, the robot runs to your mom and shoots her in the face killing her

The robot did it out of it's "free will". However, are you free of guilt? You made that robot knowing what it'd do after booting up. That could be held up in a court of law against you. As long as you confess to having full knowledge in advance and still went ahead with your plan to make the robot, you are partly responsible. In fact, between you and the robot, you had more "free will". You could have chosen not to make the robot and your mom would have been alive. But the robot didn't have that luxury. The robot's fat had only ONE outcome which you have foreseen.

What makes all of this more bizarre is that then you end up being the judge who sentences the robot to torture for it's crime!

Well I actually heard this reasoning before, but it's the same.
In your example you have decided that God already knew how it will end for that person even before that is in existence.
On basis of what did you conclude this?

Here is my version of the free will, I hope for some feedback, some flaws I overlooked, not only from you but also of course any one else. Or maybe a better theory.

Allah creates whatever He wills, simply because He is Allah. He does what He wants.
He created (and creates) every kind of thing. One of those things is a will who is free from His will in the sense that it can make it's own decisions.
The will has a like an infinite ways to program itself (make decisions). But because of His mercy, He showed/s the will what is behind every code. When you try to use a bad code, you will always get red warnings before you do so. The more evil behind a code the more alarm-bells you will hear. When you want to use a good code you will get encouragement to go on and use that code.
With other words Allah knows what you want to hit (he knows every soul) but He did not program you to hit what He wants, He left that to you. That is your free will.
Allah knows exactly what is in me now but it is me who is writing my own book.

You may say that Allah knows the future so He knows already what I am going to decide, like you explained in your example.
But the future simply does not exist. Only NOW exists, there is no future, except the NOW.
We are thinking in time, but time simply does not exist, it's just an abstract tool we "created" to "count" 2 existing moments. Because everything is in motion we have chosen to count time by the movement of things which are determined in their motion/existence.
It is not that the whole universe from begin to end was already created and Allah is watching a movie he already made, which He knows the outcome of, no we are living in the unvierses creation/evolution.
This what you see (and obviously all the things we do not see or know) that is His creation at prime time and we are NOW living in the middle of it.
What is gone is gone, what has to come He did not create it yet. He did not already created the world of "tomorrow" but "tomorrow" he will create the world of "tomorrow".
I think a lot of things He created are determined, not created yet but determined. That is why we can calculate physical things for the future.
The human soul is different, he gave it the gift to evolve itself in the NOW in a way the soul chooses it self, not determinerend, so we are in charge of our own evolution and we are responsible for the evolution of the planet earth, the place He gave to us to live in. We are in fact the ultimate terminators.
With the difference of course that He still has total control of us, I mean He still can do whatever He wills with us.

I can go on but I guess this is getting boring  ;)


Quote
@Sturtlaghari

What if God exists and is not good and not all that intelligent or truthful?


Peace
----------------- Student of Allah

I think then you are talking about shaytaan not about Allah.
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Comrox

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2016, 06:16:43 PM »
We are told that a loving God/Allah created us individually and endowed us with an eternal soul and with free will.  We are further told that God is all-knowing and all-seeing.  Still further that how we use "free will" determine whether our individual ultimate fate will be a heaven or a hell.  And further still that God has preordained all good and all evil.  And, moreover, that we are to use the God-given faculty of reason.

According to my reasoning, this is all paradoxical.

How can "free will" operate to alter what has been predetermined?

How can an omniscient God create a person that he purportedly loves, with the foreknowledge -- indeed, His own predetermination -- that the person will suffer as his ultimate fate eternal burning in a hell?

Why would an omnipotent, loving God preordain evil?

I personally don't believe Hell is eternal. It can be, but I don't think that's just at all. I haven't gotten the chance to study that subject as well as I would like to.

I'm actually studying St. Augustine right now for a philosophy class. His idea is that evil isn't reality. Evil is not natural. Evil is simply what results from a lack of good. I think good and evil are part of the balancing act.

Honestly I'm not sure I would want to live in a world like this if it was completely good. It's a very difficult concept to wrap my mind around. I wouldn't be who I am without some "evil."

Why would an eternal God with no beginning, who has existed for infinite eternities within eternities, decide to create humans for the sole purpose of worshipping him.

Why does an omnipotent God need anything at all, especially the craven worship of lowly humans?

Who said that God needs anything?

As far as our purpose being worshiping God, I believe that simply we worship/serve God by doing good deeds. Fight against oppression. Be humble. Be grateful. Be generous. Try not to let your material valuables consume you. Be a good person. Etc.
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

huruf

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 01:26:12 AM »
Of course hell is not eternal,neither paradie is eternal. The Qur'an says it time and again, our destiny is to God. We, everything goes back to God. The mystics and sufis know it. The Qur'an says it.

We people when we get into this kind of debates forget that TIME is a human concept a conept tid up with matter. God is not bound by it.

that is why all the talk about pre-destination and the like is useless. It responds to our limits and reflects them, but it is not reality, just a particularity of reality. God is not bound by that.

What amounts to when people in the Qur'an are told that they will stay in hell, khalidoon, is like saying that they will stay there till they rot... I guess they will stay there till they clense themselves of unreality, of the chimera of thinking that their desires are the law of the universe, till they are humbled, till they stop being the shaytans they are and become dust at the feet of the the only real one AlHaqq.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

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Re: Basic questions
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2016, 09:12:41 PM »
authority. is what all it is if you use free will as authority its quite reasonable . only to Allah belong all the authority and powers. but human being is always very transgressing ignorant .he always wanted to be a God . he use his authority to rule on everything that's what leads towards the powers .history tells us people like hitler and other when they was young they get torture instead of finishing the torture they provoke violence making their ego satisfied. even they forget what promise did they make at the first stage of creation. yes human being is greedy he acceoted this challenge but he forget how hard it is.. y mountains trees and other creation didn't accept this challenge becoz they know its hard. think for a while . now... what special we have what nobody else have . authority we need to thanks allah he authorised us to use all the services and all the things including angels are in our service. but the one who authorise something if you make use of your powers wrongly he will catch you. becoz we accepted this thing at first stage .. 

now see authority links with brain and thinking all depend on this character which is inside us. from our imagination everybody think he is special he never wanted to get insulted from anybody. now he  is using his authority to catch a secret of his creator which is not possible for anybody even angels have some limitations. so what human think he is... he is nothing but a slave he need something ,,, for that something he accept to take that  test... somebody is blind deaf dumb his test is easy at that time(first stage) he know I will get birth as a blind or disable but he took that risk ,,

God dnt need anything any praise from anybody,, Good is already great and ppraise worthy even you say it thousand times or million times,, you said it for your own sake of getting reward hereafter...

now come to the authority hitler and other people killed millions of innocent ... millions people cry due to them just hanging them for one time is the justice.. there you go that y he creates a law.

your free will is nothing but a authority which is unique to humans.. try to understand ..again if you use this authority wrong who is to b blame ... police officer is hired to protect people ,,, law  didn't say them to take bribe ,, if law find out they will definatey fire that officer.

so what you expect from the law of God if you use his authority wrong who is responisible I can write so much but space and time I m stuck in so for clever people ,,, few hints are ok ,, rest of them I cant help to make them understand as they already decided like devil to arrogance its their choice