Author Topic: Reason and belief  (Read 2951 times)

sturtlaghari

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 05:01:22 AM »
How I react is also something that happens to me.  You make a false distinction.

hicham9

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 07:01:15 AM »

? Life is like a game of cards.
The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will. ?


? J. Nehru
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

HP_TECH

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2016, 08:25:32 AM »
How I react is also something that happens to me.  You make a false distinction.
The falsehood is that which you speak and what you assume unknowingly.
If you don't understand ask for clarification.
Did you not come seeking counsel?
Then when an answer is given to you, you dismiss it as falsehood, when its interpretation has not reached you?

Furthermore you have no firm grasp in the Book yet..
And you make assumptions about Allah without knowledge?
Quote
It is my feeling that, in my personal humility, I can never feel that I am understanding of all -- especially not of Allah/God, Who is, I think, beyond human ken.  And I must be honest in saying that my reasoning does not succeed in reconciling, on the one hand, the concept of God/Allah being the all-knowing predeterminer of good and evil alike, and, on the other hand, free will, which, we are told, is to determine for a person a fate either of heaven or hell.  How, I must ask, can a person be held responsible for what was predetermined by his Maker?  How can a loving God predetermine eternal hellfire for his creation, a human being?  If I believe in a loving God, which must be the foundation of any religious concepts I adopt, then I cannot believe there is a hell.  This is what reason, presumably endowed by God, tells me!

Doubt is not the best way to start, if you truly want to submit that is.

The shadada will not cover what's in your heart
When the main reason why you are even considering becoming a Muslim is to marry a woman
Is that not your primary interest?

This woman told you she's a Quranic and then urges you to familiarize with a local Islamic community?
Does not add up.
She would urge you to study that Book and seek guidance from Allah alone instead of traditionalists that are bent on dividing themselves into sects and are blameworthy of oppressive mentality.
Someone who considered themselves Quranic would never truly urge you to seek counsel from a traditionalist community, because they would know most of them follow everything but the Quran(Ahadith and Sunna)
So perhaps you are now here for a reason
So don't just hear but listen closely and do not reject
Don't just look at me, but see me

You have the free will to do whatever you will, but your Creator is the Absolute Supreme and He knows whatever you will do,
This does not mean that your actions and how you respond to your conditions is set in stone, you can choose whatever
Just like you can choose to submit or rebel, Allah already knows, He is the All-Knower yet He is the Most Gracious , Most Merciful, the Perpetual Giver, even so that Ge will give you your whole lifetime to redeem yourself and do right and believe.

57:22-23
Not strikes any disaster in the earth and not in yourselves, but in a Register before that We bring it into existence. Indeed, that for Allah (is) easy.
So that you may not grieve over what has escaped you, and (do) not exult at what He has given you. And Allah (does) not love every self-deluded boaster,

That is in response to the underlined in bold.
You can grieve over what befalls you or exult over what happens for you, or you can choose to remain patient over all that befalls you.
Please you are the one who brought up free will so do not be foolish and pretend now that you don't understand that your reaction to things, your actions are all part of free-will, you actively choose to respond in whichever way you feel. That does not "happen to you", rather you make it happen.
Stop concealing. Some disbelievers conceal the truth they see in the Signs(Verses) and some hypocrites conceal their disbelief in the Signs(Verses)of Allah. Shun it all the mysticism and doubt and submit to Allah if you will and Read the Book.

41:40 Indeed, those who distort [in] Our Verses (are) not hidden from Us. So, is (he) who is cast in the Fire better or (he) who comes secure (on the) Day (of) Resurrection? Do what you will. Indeed, He of what you do (is) All-Seer.


Finally in response to the red. I cannot even stress how many Signs in the Quran warn about the punishment of Hell. It is real.
Listen this life is a test, you either succeed or fail.
The way you phrase your statement is already of concern there is no such thing as " a loving God"
There is only One God, All the Most Beautiful Attributes belong to Him.
Why don't you attribute grandeur to Allah?
Indeed you were right about you not understanding He is High Above what you associate with Him!
He is the All-Loving, All-Benevolent, All-Beneficient, All-Kind, All-Powerful, All-Mighty, simultaneously the Severest in Punishment.

Read the Book seeking His guidance first then make your opinions

Peace
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

faruk

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 152
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2016, 03:23:10 PM »
So the first principle of Islam is the rejection of all gods, all false attributions. It is the Anti-God religion. It is the War against the "Gods".

Every day, the Muslims raise up their finger and make a declaration of War against the Gods to purify themselves of falsehood.

We can start there. Please don't be shy to ask me anything you might want to. I know the arrogance of people can lead them to not really share any real question they may have and instead turn to mockery or something else instead, which is only a wasted opportunity for you.

1. Rejection of All Gods/Powers (the Iconoclasm) until you reach the Ultimate conclusion (the process that Ibrahim is described as going through in his stories)
2. Acknowledgment of Only the Ultimate (but it needs the right definition and understanding)
3. The Qur'an does not matter, if it says something wrong, then those statements are to be rejected, this religion goes beyond all the scriptures, luckily the Qur'an doesn't actually say anything wrong, people just interpret it in different ways, when one's MIND IS SET RIGHT FIRST that is what makes the difference. That is why the Qur'an is "for the believers" those who already have the right mindset. Allah misguides those with their minds set on wrong ideas, they can then find in the Qur'an that God is a man or any number of stupid ideas they want to make.
4. Right channeling of everything, including things like hate, anger, and fear.
5. Utilization of as much as possible towards good ends, even idols and the various "signs and symbols" towards good reminders and meanings whenever they become present, this is having one's mind set on seeing things with insight and in a meditative way. Just like the Qur'an, the very same symbols and signs can be involved with false and misleading thoughts for some people.

What is Islam all about? Islam should be all about being right. To do what is best of all and get what is best of all and be what is best of all.

There should be no blind faith, and everything should have clear and well reasoned justifications and reasoning backing it up strongly.

What is logically necessary is all that we should comprehend as true, and we should not believe much in the transitory things which don't matter too much anyway except for as far as they might help us in making decisions pertaining to life and other strategies.

Islam is not a very complex religion at all, and neither is plain logic and common sense very difficult, except that people perhaps lack patience to follow through with the thoughts to their absolute ends. Often, things make sense to people the way things make sense in dreams, and upon awakening, those things are realized as clearly dreamy hallucinations, illusions with only the chemical of acceptance behind them."

"Good questions.

The Shahada can be false in what people imagine, or they can deal with it in an honest understanding. It is an affirmation of the basic creed of Islam and its underlying core, which is the rejection of all Gods/Powers other than the Ultimate, and then added to it also was that Muhammed is the slave and messenger of Allah. None of the statements are false if understood correctly. It can be considered an affirmation and meditation on the essential truths:

1. There is no power whatsoever other than Allah.
2. What is the Ultimate and Only Power is what is being called Allah, it is not supposed to be anything that people imagine, but is unlike everything. Everything is information, it is not information, it can only ever be One.
3. The one that the Qur'an is attributed to is known as Muhammed, regardless if he told the truth or lies, like all that exists, he was a slave and a messenger of Allah.

If someone is imagining their cousin Muhammed Jameel that is not what the creed is about, that is their own imagination. It is merely a tool, like the whole performance of the prayer.

People doubt why they should mention Muhammed, because they are associating things with Muhammed or in their imagination, and it works to expose their doubts concerning him or his existence.

The Qur'an exists, its a book, the one who brought the book is generally known as Muhammed. Whoever brought the book, called Muhammed, was a slave like we are all slaves, and a messenger of Allah, even the most foul mouthed liars are servants and messengers of Allah, no sacrifice is being made in these statements, except the Qur'an speaks the truth, and Muhammed is the one said to have brought it, so we are also affirming that we believe in the Qur'an, that it is a message of Allah, which again is true, even if it were all lies from top to bottom, again no sacrifices are being made in these statements.

It is a full statement and meditation against shirk, and mentioning that Muhammed is merely a slave and messenger like any other is not a glorification of Muhammed, but reminding people what he is, not a God, not a Savior, but a Slave who brought a Message, the Message was the Qur'an, it doesn't matter what the Qur'an says, it is just that is what he was, a slave who brought a message and thus a messenger."

"Good question! It is assumed by many people the one the Muslims call Ibrahim was a semitic language speaker. I have no certain knowledge what language he spoke or what word he used. The Qur'an describes something which has taken on the word Islam these days and is generally said to mean "Surrender".

I give it the longer definition at times, due to some of the common meanings associated with the root word and other implications: "realizing peace/relief/healing by complete and utter surrender/submission/acknowledgment of the Truth/Reality (which is that Allah is the only power and cause of everything, the one to fear and the one we rely on willingly or unwillingly always)".

If anyone in the past had such an understanding, I don't know. If Ibrahim existed or how he existed or what he believed, I don't know. The Mormons for example rudely make a Book of the statements of Abraham and he is constantly talking about "Gods" and the Bible makes him out to be what seems to be a lying pimp. I eschew those things, and I prefer what the Qur'an depicts, the truth of which is moreover in its utility than in its history, the history of which matters little to me compared to its uses for our benefit."

"Now you may notice "peace/relief/healing" was mentioned, as the result of coming to terms with some sort of "truth" generally accepted to be concerning the nature of the Ultimate Reality, that is, what I call God.

From The Terrible Temple of FreedomStands http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607788.0
39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

reel

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 06:16:33 PM »
Quote
I am grateful to all who have generously responded here.  Thank you!
You are welcome  :)

Faruk,
  You are quite daring that you actually read entire posts of Freedomstands  :D That said, he was very lively. But there are things he didn't mention in this post of his and that would leave any new interested person confused.


Quote
Every day, the Muslims raise up their finger and make a declaration of War against the Gods to purify themselves of falsehood.
I don't think we are at war against Gods. We are just accepting there is only One. Saying declaration of War against the Gods asserts that we won't let anyone worship their respective Gods.

Quote
1. Rejection of All Gods/Powers (the Iconoclasm) until you reach the Ultimate conclusion (the process that Ibrahim is described as going through in his stories)
This one assumes that we first became atheist and then chose the One.

Quote
3. The Qur'an does not matter, if it says something wrong, then those statements are to be rejected, this religion goes beyond all the scriptures, luckily the Qur'an doesn't actually say anything wrong, people just interpret it in different ways, when one's MIND IS SET RIGHT FIRST that is what makes the difference. That is why the Qur'an is "for the believers" those who already have the right mindset. Allah misguides those with their minds set on wrong ideas, they can then find in the Qur'an that God is a man or any number of stupid ideas they want to make.
Quote
4. Right channeling of everything, including things like hate, anger, and fear
Quote
5. Utilization of as much as possible towards good ends, even idols and the various "signs and symbols" towards good reminders and meanings whenever they become present, this is having one's mind set on seeing things with insight and in a meditative way. Just like the Qur'an, the very same symbols and signs can be involved with false and misleading thoughts for some people.
He knew how to set the tone for sure. First shock the readers and then unlock the mystery. He is right here. I feel thankful to Allah that he gives us the freedom to express and be individuals.

Quote
It is a full statement and meditation against shirk, and mentioning that Muhammed is merely a slave and messenger like any other is not a glorification of Muhammed, but reminding people what he is, not a God, not a Savior, but a Slave who brought a Message, the Message was the Qur'an, it doesn't matter what the Qur'an says, it is just that is what he was, a slave who brought a message and thus a messenger."
That's the mainstream view. They all tell us that they don't worship Muhammad. But eating like him, following his fashion, etc are not so different from how a little monster follows Lady Gaga out of admiration. And yes, now Gaga does call herself Goddess and her position is not wrong. And it seems corruptions begin as soon as a human or statue is picked to be the focus of the religion. Have you seen an unusual change taking place in the mainstream Islam? People are slowly replacing Allah with Muhammad. I mean it is no more about what God tells us to do. It is just all about the Prophet. Even Miss Malala in her nobel prize speech was all over Muhammad instead of Allah. Same thing was seen in the mosque leaders who served tea and cookies to EDL. They went something like "what prophet would do in this situation".
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

faruk

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 152
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2016, 01:24:08 AM »
You are welcome  :)

Faruk,
  You are quite daring that you actually read entire posts of Freedomstands  :D That said, he was very lively. But there are things he didn't mention in this post of his and that would leave any new interested person confused.

Salam. Yes I read all his posts. I found it interesting and eye opening. Not to be confused , you have to read all his posts. I miss him.
39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2016, 03:11:38 AM »
I miss him too.

We might creat a club of Freedomstand missers.

Salaam

reel

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2016, 03:49:32 AM »
I miss him too.

We might creat a club of Freedomstand missers.

Salaam
:rotfl:

For what i am gonna say next, please people don't throw eggs at me. We do miss him. Can we have him back?
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2016, 10:03:59 AM »
:rotfl:

For what i am gonna say next, please people don't throw eggs at me. We do miss him. Can we have him back?

I second that.

Salaam

marifhaq

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 76
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Reason and belief
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2016, 12:41:20 PM »
Dear Mr. HP_TECH,Peace,

In reply to a member on this forum,(let me cal him "A")
you said ,"read the
book first for his guidance, and then give your opinion"
OK,are you suggesting that "A" has never read the book?Please do reply so that small fries like me may understand you and islam.
Next you wrote that read the Book for guidance,well why you needed to say so,every body is doing it so,but there is a point of insult to fellow "A" that he  has not read the book hence has no guidance from Allah.Well if you are correct then I am sure ,that you have read the Book and have received the guidance from Allah..!! Well if so,would you please like to share with us that how or what guidance you received,or who guided you,did u receive some information in dream,or heard a voice out of no where,or did u received a piece of paperwith some guidance written on it,or u just got inspired by Allah..???
you said about "A" that perhaps he not reading the book..!! well but how do you determine this??how do you dteremine that which member is guided or not.?
you said "A" should not give his opinion if he has not read the book and received guidance , well if so dont u know that many members of this forum are not muslims,even if muslims ,hve not read the book fully,even if read the book have not understood it fully ,like u have, and might not have received guidance ,like u have,.U have made a fun of "A" (I am trying to hide his name from being dishonored /ashamed)