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Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?

Started by uq, January 23, 2016, 06:06:48 PM

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good logic

It seems many want to interpret Qoran and implement their interpretation  on others.
ISIS think they are implementing Qoran.
Saudi Arabia think they are implementing Qoran.
Hundreds of sects are following their interpretation and implementing it accordingly.

Should Qoran not be studied and implemented on oneself first and foremost? Are we  not supposed to cleanse our minds and better ourselves with it ?

GOD tells them clearly"do not force deen" on others",but claim Qoran gives the "freedom of choice" when it suits them.
They cut the heads, fingers and hands  and justify it with Qoran.
They horde wealth and monopolise it for the leaders and powerful"men" and justify it with Qoran.
They oppress women, children and the weak in society and justify it with Qoran
They tell lies about GOD , create a religion and rules galore.enforce it on others and justify it with Qoran.
...and so on.

Why are not those who implement "cutting hands"  not applying it to themselves when some of them steal people s wealth,property and freedom?

In honesty , if "cutting hands" is applied for theft, there will be:
1- Injustice - Many are stealing little things for necessity-Others are stealing very big-
2-Most people  of the world  Having one hand -The majority of humans take what is not theirs- little things- either deliberately or by mistake-
3- Most leaders will have one hand..
GOD might as well create humans with one hand to start with!!  Perhaps on second though it is a good thing GOD created us with two hands. Otherwise some will still interpret "cut hands" and there will be some folks walking about with no hand at all.

Anyway each to their interpretations.
GOD bless you all.
Peace
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jkhan

Peace..
That's why it is pathetic to hear when conventional Muslims say that it is the order of God in Quran and Hadith.. Heartless people to be honest..

Does anyone notice the strange part in those couple of verses 5:38-39..
God didn't say to forgive them when they thieve..  I would forgive if I found someone  steal anything of mine which the thief need more than me... of course if I realize that.. For example if I found someone is desperate to and found nothing other than stealing.. In case I don't mind losing it.. But God didn't instruct us in Quran to forgive them but can be forgiven when they themselves repent plus reform coz God forgives  so better we do as well.. I or you may be emotional looking at the thief's desperate situation but giving a helping hand for theft and encouraging is not recommended by God correctly... But if we found someone  stealing in hunger, we may approach him casually and extend a helping hand and advise not to steal...  But God directly warns us theft is illegal even how much desperate the situation  is... Big level thieves are real thieves and their only intention  is living a life based on theft...

But people who practice theft on desperate situation are not real thieves.. But definitely not encouraged by God.. If they are in a destitute situation, they can / should always find someone who they feel who can help them... Doing something is always within the possibility, if he is capable enough to steal someone else's property ... Isn't it? Believers should always look for help from God if they find they are desperate but not choose theft...
But what about disbliever (poor) who is on desperate situation?  He doesn't mind ethics.. Our emotion towards him won't work.. It will only boost his hunt to theft making us fool...

So.. I highly accept what God's decision to disconnect the hands of thieves from society... Who knows better than God... Our emotions and dislike is not relevant over the decision of God...

If anyone has researched,  " why one becomes a theif" pls share... I feel it is one's own fault in managing his resources before zero level strikes.. But if unfortunate people like (blind,  orphan etc etc) happened to steal then it is the fault of society ... God encourages charity at very high level... But if one tries to live on charity forever and when helpless trying to steal then he is responsible for his situation... Everyone works hard to earn...  Not to make the beggers and thief enrich by doing nothing..

Those who blindly say that God's verses are clear and it has been commanded to cut the physical hands, should seriously question their reasoning on why God didn't set any conditions like to other major crimes.. Such as bring evidences, witnesses,  blood money etc... It is not simple thing Losing both hands.. So need concrete witnesses.. But God is silent on that.. But to disconnect from society just catching the thief on the spot is enough..

What is a thief?
If someone when caught stealing others property and then by returning what he stole will not make him as No thief.. Either he returns or devour he is thief.. Isnt it? ..by returning what he stole when he was caught on the spot won't make him by any means REPENTED or REFORMED..
So.. Do you still want to cut his hands coz he is literally a thief? No one lost anything... But one loses both hands for nothing.. What a shameful act that is..

Or else vice versa.  Stole 500$ and unable to return.. So one lost 500$ .. So cut hands.. Would anyone of you wish if you are a believer to cut a thief's both hands coz you lost 500$? But you won't mind if a murderer was hanged?  That's so natural...

Will you ever be peaceful whenever you see that thief without hands begging on the streets just coz of your dollars?  It will only be a burden to society by that punishment... Is that exemplary from God? No way..
That's cruel heart of evil men invented by hiding the real meaning of real message of God...
Curse upon curse on those nations who execute such practices..

Finally theft is always wrong coz it is against the ethics of a peaceful society... But cutting hands is worse and unethical...

They forgot the basic who implement such unethical barbaric laws..
Simply start from a family.. What would a father do if his son stole something from his locker.. Cut hands or disconnect his hands from family until he repent and reform? If he reforms accept him... But what happens if father just forgive him and neglect even after he found his son stole... Father is cultivating his son to society to become a thief..


Let us die with guidance

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TellMeTheTruth

Salam all!

The answer is in the next ayah, that is 5:40
[Sahih International]
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

Peace!

Noon waalqalami

Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on November 30, 2020, 12:57:26 PM
Salam all!

The answer is in the next ayah, that is 5:40
[Sahih International]
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

Peace!

peace, punishment in 5:40 is same as in 5:37, 5:41

5:6 وايديكم and hands yours الي to المرافق the elbow

5:38 ايديهما aydiyahuma/hands theirs dual


e.g. two people need to sever 4 hands, forearms, etc.

you suggesting severing both their hands make them as armless mannequins?



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/38/handschrift/15




TellMeTheTruth

Salam brother Noon!

I am not suggesting any punishment. I know that it is only Allah who has all the right to punish ir forgive. Are you not an Allah only believer? Or the translation of 5:40 is wrong?

Peace!

Noon waalqalami

Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on December 01, 2020, 02:42:18 AM
Or the translation of 5:40 is wrong?

peace tmtt, what has to do with 5:38-39 topic?

5:18 ... يغفر forgived لمن to whom يشا willed ويعذب and punished من whom يشا willed ولله and to god ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land وما and what بينهما between them dual واليه and towards him المصير the destiny

5:37 ... ولهم and for them عذب punishment مقيم established (end verse/topic)

5:38-39 والسارق and the thief (male) والسارقه and the thief (female) ...
... ان indeed الله the god غفور forgiver رحيم merciful (end verse/topic)


5:40 الم did not تعلم thou know ان that الله the god له to him ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land يعذب punished من whom يشا willed ويغفر and forgived لمن to whom يشا willed والله and the god علي on كل every شي thing قدير supreme

48:14 ولله and to god ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land يغفر forgived لمن to whom يشا willed ويعذب and punished من whom يشا willed وكان and be/is الله the god غفورا forgiver of رحيما merciful of


TellMeTheTruth

Salam brother noon!

OK. Message of 5:40 is clear and repeated variously in AQ. Now in Dhul-qarnain case, he was allowed to give the punishment to a nation but he avoided. So Allah can give authority to some of his chosen entities. In Musa's killing case, Allah did not punished him. Instead he was forgiven and appointed as a Rasool. Big QuestionMark?
Let's see 5:38-39 case. فاقطعوا is a commabd given to 3 or more people and ایدی is plural for 3 or more hands. I think it is saying to people to restrain THEIR hands from both of them and IF any one of the people forgets this command and harms the السارق or السارقۃ by chance then he/she can تاب and Allah would forgive him/her. Because people are not given the authority to punish anyone. What will you say if people kill a murderer without any trial in court? Need to look at exact meaning of قطع.
5:40 is end of this topic as 5:41 is beginning of a new topic.

Peace!
Peace!

Wakas

Quote from: Wakas on November 28, 2020, 06:38:00 AM
peace tf,

Did you actually read the links I provided? Yes/No.

I hope you are not being lazy but I will post them here for all to see:

Like others who hold the view "cut off" you will be forced to admit the word doesn't usually mean cut-off, when the more appropriate intense 2nd form is used with hands it doesn't mean cut-off and you would cut off the hands for stealing a slice of bread etc etc. Is that "God is the standard" in your eyes?

As is often the case when confronted with the evidence their only response is silence.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

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Iyyaka

Quote from: tutti_frutti on November 27, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
salam

i really do not understand why there is the need to interpret the verse

The God was clear ... punishment for stealing is cutting off of the hands unless the thief repents

if He wanted ro say sustenance or what else, im guessing He would have said cut their sustenance. but no, He said HANDS ... so why interpret :)

also if we start interpreting verses then why dont we interpret verses about lashing etc or even about hell and say fire is just an allegory there is no fire

but no, The God is clear in His verses and His words are precise

hands to be amputated for the thief just as there is actual fire and boiling liquid in hell

peace
Salam Brother tutti_frutti,

Yes you're right and i was wrong.
Probably the classic mistake of mixing and projecting one's personal feelings/opinions onto a text.

A few additional remarks about your last comment:

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      (1) Structure of the text (according to the principles of Semitic rhetoric - cf. note 1)
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While the subpart of Sura 5 (verses 1-26) ended with a highly symbolic biblical narrative, the second subpart (verses 27-50) also begins with a parable narrative from the biblical tradition: the murder of Cain. The story of this crime is like a pediment inaugurating a textual subsection devoted to questions concerning the exercise of justice in the new community founded by Muhammad. It has two textual sequences: 27-40 and 41-50. The first one prescribe corporal punishment for certain crimes, beyond which lies the struggle of some rebellious Jews against the prophet. The second inaugurate Muhammad as an arbiter in the internal affairs of Jews and Christians.

The textual sequence from verses 27 to 40 comprises three passages arranged in "concentrism" (e.g.a sequence with a center, symbolized by the letter X as below):

(A) 27-31
     (X) 32-a-f
(A') 32g-40.

The first passage is dedicated to the account of fratricide ; the second repeats a sentence of wisdom from Jewish tradition forbidding all murder, except for the execution of the murderer or the one who contributes at "a disorder/chaos in the land" ; the third passage applies this exception to "those who fight against God and his messenger and contribute at a disorder/chaos in the land", while extending the consideration to other crimes and punishments, such as theft (verse 5:38).

Below is a schematic representation of the structure of verses 27 to 40:

(A) The murder of Cain (verses 27-31)
      (X) The prohibition of murder and "disorder" on earth (verses 32a-f)
(A) Crimes and punishments for "disorder" external to the community (war) and internal to the community (theft) (verses 32g-40)

=> This whole passage is about corporal/physical punishment.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      (2) Arabic principle : the plural "aydiyahumā" (their hands)
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Normally, the plural form in Arabic indicates a minimum of 3 units.
However, it exists the Arabic principle that 'when [the Arabs] annex (aḍāfat) a single body part to each of a pair of individuals, they use the plural form', quoting Q. 66:4, If you both repent to God, for indeed your hearts have deviated (in tatūbā ilā'llāhi fa-qad ṣaghat qulūbukumā).

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      (3) Vocabulary : the word "nakālan" (5:38) = "(as) an exemplary (punishment)"
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Dictionary Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane :
Any punishment serving to give warning to others than the sufferer: (M, K, TA:) or that restrains the offender from repeating the offence

** Dictionary Arabic-French Lexicon by Kazimirski :
Some uses of the root نكل (nun-kaf-lam)
1. To recoil, to move away 2. to refrain from something, or to recoil from someone or something out of fear
2. To be instructed, warned, intimidated by examples one has had before one's eyes, or to make an example of someone, e.g. by inflicting exemplary punishment.
3. Terrible and exemplary punishment


=> This visual and collective exemplarity act corresponds to the fact of cutting the hand, and instilling the fear of robbing in the hearts of Men.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      (4) The historical context of the revelation of Sura 5, and verse 38.
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sura 5 is the last to appear in the chronological order of the Koranic revelation. Muhammad became the undisputed ruler of the community he governed. The Qur'anic principles of solidarity with the weakest are fully realized. No one has a "serious" reason to steal because he is hungry. Thus in this context the motive to steal has no justification and can only cause disorder/chaos in the tight-knit community of believers.

Furthermore, the traditional scholars have set conditions for the application of this measure:
- This does not apply to stealing food (especially if one steals out of hunger)
- A minimum amount of value must be stolen to be applied
etc..

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      (5) Variant of recitation/qirâ'a : the variant of Ibn Masʿūd
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Q. 5:38, the verse setting out the punishment for thievery, the canonical reading is cut off the hands of both the male and female thief (wa'l-sāriqu wa'l-sāriqatu fa'qṭaʿū aydiyahumā). Al-Farrāʾ records from Ibn Masʿūd, cut off the right hands of both male and female thieves (wa'l-sāriqūn wa'l-sāriqāt fa'qṭaʿū aymānahumā).Al-Ṭabarī records one isnād indicating doubt about whether Ibrāhīm al-Nakhaʿī quoted Ibn Masʿūd or claimed this recitation for himself, and another referring to al-Nakhaʿī alone. He also narrates from Ibn Masʿūd without al-Nakhaʿī, cut off the right hands of both the male and female thief (wa'l-sāriqu wa'l-sāriqatu fa'qṭaʿū aymānahumā). By using the singular form of sāriq and sāriqa, this second reading only diverges from the canonical Qur'anic text by a single word.This is the version that al-Jaṣṣāṣ records as the recitation of al-Nakhaʿī.

=> We have here the testimony that Ibn Mas'ûd recited this verse using the plural: "The thieves/as-sâriqûn and the thieves/as-sâriqât, cut off their hands...", which would indeed explain the presence of the plural aydiy/hands.

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Note 1 :
- https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Levels-and-figures-of-rhetorical-composition_v1-English.pdf
- https://reveniraucoran.fr/rhetorique-semitique/ (English translation is possible with the orange button in the upper right corner of the screen)
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God bless you.
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