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How much information from hadith do we actually use?

Started by Osman, October 11, 2015, 05:08:43 PM

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runninglikezebras

There is a lot of evidence Quran has been modified, most likely up until the 8th century.  See Sanaa psalimpsests, the work of Gerd R. Puin, the work of Guillaume Dye, Manfred Kropp, Patricia Crone and many others.  It's not because you choose to remain ignorant to the evidence provided by the above that it means Quran is still original.
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

Timotheus

Quote from: runninglikezebras on October 12, 2015, 03:24:41 PM
There is a lot of evidence Quran has been modified, most likely up until the 8th century.  See Sanaa psalimpsests, the work of Gerd R. Puin, the work of Guillaume Dye, Manfred Kropp, Patricia Crone and many others.  It's not because you choose to remain ignorant to the evidence provided by the above that it means Quran is still original.

Do you have references/links to this evidence
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

Roshan

Quote from: runninglikezebras on October 12, 2015, 03:24:41 PM
There is a lot of evidence Quran has been modified, most likely up until the 8th century.  See Sanaa psalimpsests, the work of Gerd R. Puin, the work of Guillaume Dye, Manfred Kropp, Patricia Crone and many others.  It's not because you choose to remain ignorant to the evidence provided by the above that it means Quran is still original.

Peace

And if the recent quranic fragment was similar to the text we have today, would this change your opinion?


Roshan

NielsJacob


Peace Runninglikezebras.
Quote from: runninglikezebras on October 12, 2015, 03:24:41 PM
There is a lot of evidence Quran has been modified, most likely up until the 8th century.  See Sanaa psalimpsests, the work of Gerd R. Puin, the work of Guillaume Dye, Manfred Kropp, Patricia Crone and many others.  It's not because you choose to remain ignorant to the evidence provided by the above that it means Quran is still original.

I tried to look at the works for these persons.
The first and second is about one reconstruction of some hidden manuscript. In my view is very weak to rely on that reconstruction. What was it in the first place. And what was it used for. In the comparing it look like there are some lacks in the reconstruction which could indicate that the work wasn?t complete
The third is about Alexander the great. That one we have discussed. So also no point.
The fourth is some work about the hadits as I see it. here I think I could agree with you.

you seems like someone with knowledge.
If you really have some valid claims why dont you argue for them then?

runninglikezebras

The research on the Sanaa psalimpsests is still ongoing.  I often feel there is no point in debating this a lot.  The majority here is convinced the Quran is some divine scripture, sent down from heaven by an angel.  Rational arguments often fail to convince those who have taken that leap of faith.

The most convincing text manipulation is the adding of "and the nazarenes" to the polemic aimed at the rabbinical jews.  The text manipulation can be detected by the breaking of the rythm (cantillation) of the verses.  Next to it, it renders the quran to contradiction.  In one verse it claims the Nazarenes are most closely related to the believers, on the other hand it forbids the believers to take Nazarenes (together with Jews) as allies and pictures them as enemies.

There is the change to "?ar-rūḥ al-qudus? dropping the "al" to make it fit the later discourse of revelation by Gabriel, whereas with the "al" it can only denote the christian concept of "the Holy Ghost".  This text manipulation is linked to late introduction of the myth of the night journey. 

Changes to Q 2:89 and Q 2:101 to again, grant divine origins to Quran and the Rasul. 

Compare:

  (From verse 144, Sura 3 in folio 6v (Paris BNF arabe 328a)

vs

(From the Samarkand folio)

All of these are documented at http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Codicology_and_suspected_verses.htm by EM Gallez.

There are many other examples.  I'm not a scholar, these topics are actively being researched by academics way more knowledgeable than I am. They not only document these differences but also explain the motives for those manipulations.

@Roshan: if you are referring to the 2 pages of the birmingham quran of which only the parchment has been carbon dated, it hasn't changed my opinion.
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

runninglikezebras

Quote from: Timotheus on October 12, 2015, 09:18:26 PM
Do you have references/links to this evidence

A lot of it is documented in the translation of Olaf's book "the great secret of Islam" which I translated here.
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

Jafar

I'm not a Quran aloner or a Quran worshiper.
Thus I don't see anything wrong of "using information from Hadith (or any other sources)".

What's wrong is:
Using it (or the Quran for that matter) as an absolute evidence, bypassing common sense, facts and empirical / observable evidence.

This is known as "ad verecundiam" or "appeal to authority" fallacy.
    A says P
    A is HOLY
    Therefore, P is correct.

Example:
    The Hadith says you must push Jews to the narrowest part of the road as they're accursed people.
    Hadith is holy.
    Therefore, we must push the Jews to the narrowest part of the road as they're accursed people.


Because the Hadith did said so, we can more correctly deduce that:
    The Hadith says you must push the Jews to the narrowest part of the road as they're accursed people.
    The Hadith was written around 7th or 8th century in middle east.
    There is an anti-jewish sentiment growing in Middle East around 7th or 8th century.








NielsJacob

Peace runninglikezebras
Quote from: runninglikezebras on October 13, 2015, 03:00:03 PM
The research on the Sanaa psalimpsests is still ongoing.  I often feel there is no point in debating this a lot.  The majority here is convinced the Quran is some divine scripture, sent down from heaven by an angel.  Rational arguments often fail to convince those who have taken that leap of faith.

But how can you have so much faith in something that isn?t finished. In my eyes it look like speculation. Or they failed to reconstruct correct.

Dont you find it peculiarly that its so hard to find even a small thing to point at the Quran. And nobody had come up with something so far.