Author Topic: Petra is the Holy City of Islam  (Read 2029 times)

good logic

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 12:17:20 PM »
Peace Jafar.
So the ritual of sleeping and washing was set by men ? Or what do call rituals?
Brother jafar, you know you have criticised many things to do with religion and its books  ! Like Qoran for example   going by men s interpretation of its verses . 
While you are entitled to your opinions ,your experience here should be shouldering a bit of responsibility like fairness  and checking .
Anyway , I keep coming back to Qoran especially since I honestly feel ,from some your posts, that you are not doing justice to its verses.  And this is my opinion.
But you are right to highlight false religions and men s greed.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Makaveli

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 12:34:29 PM »
What is secular forms of symbolism?

A secular form of a symbol or a symbolized ritual is just what it is - secular opposes mystical understanding of inner philosophy which lies within the symol.

Secularization of a meaning means institutionalization of a meaning into a form of human-created institution, which then works to exercise governmental, religious or other 'mechanical' purposes and formal means as opposite of a meaning bearing universal descriptive message, which is conveyed though many forms of messages, such as folklore, textual data, allegories and metaphors, signs and symbols.

Rule of thumb is that the symbol is archetypal meaning it does not change with eras, regimes, or under other circumstances. They can be interpreted differently, but an archetype still possesses its innate qualities, something which anthropology and semiotics study to uncover (innate meaning of a sign).

Example: zakat as a way to purify your soul by contemplation, good thoughts and good deeds - found everywhere, Bible, Christianity, Daoism/Taoism, Islam. This is a mystical representation of a Golden Rule, i.e. do to others (and the world) as you would wish others (and the world) do to you.

Secular representation of zakat as per Sunni faith: a 2.5 % protection tax so that you can sleep well at night so that the thugs would not confiscate your property or put other sanctions on you.

In other words, secularism implies deprivation of inner meaning of certain processes, phenomena, meanings or events into something practiced on the 'outer', materialistic level as opposite to 'inner' and spiritual. And if you do not like term 'spiritual', you can say inner representation, occult (hidden) or universal, since the universe is subject to universal laws governing it and these laws never write themselves down and are not "revealed" through the book, but yet they manifest in every possible way to make others know they are working.

When certain ideas that are meant as occult and are distributed though metaphors, allegories, signs and symbols become secularized they lose their innate meaning and become meaningless. As such, people dwell into meaningless rituals which serve little to no purpose but yet hide within themselves an inner wisdom, which lies on the level of spiritual/occult, something not sensed by five senses, but can be sensed once you see events occurring in your life.

There is no such thing as 'religious' or 'secular' because a man is by its nature religious and is governed by religion. Religion per its definition means a set of rules governing a body (human, institution, law of nature et cetera). Since we are programmed to sleep and be awake, this is religion. Religion is not subject to certain systems of belief, since believe is everywhere including materialistic forms of worship, such as a-theism, which is also based on faith on every level of life. An example of atheistic belief: a belief that "everything there IS, is what I see, there is no hidden processes and everything can be measured empirically". Well, they shat their pants when the double split experiment was conducted. And now they go great lengths trying to justify that this experiment is somehow intact with their castrated worldview.

But when something becomes as I put it 'secularized' then a form of representation of certain information simply gets its representation on the outer level as opposite to the inner level on which the conveyed information was initially thought to be represented. A great example is literal translation of the Biblical Old Testament or the Quran, which loses its innate meaning and makes no sense whatsoever. It is crazy to think how many Quranic concepts are misunderstood and that quranism is in fact a cancer of the mind, a veil so to speak, a harem, in which a veil is their psyche covered under delusion of literalism, i.e. literal understanding of occult/inner/hidden information. Luckily, the Quran has left several hints on how to understand it, one being its formulas, the other is reference to other mystical tradition all over its pages. You will not understand the Quran without understanding the Gospel of Thomas, and vise versa.

In such a case Quran becomes a mambojambo, a set of hearsay and unrelated verses, where the innate idea are covered by misuse of language as well as literal understanding of the text. When you see people write "quran-based" articles here simply look at their arguments and "verse juggling" to know what I am talking about. It pretty much abrogates the very focus of a book which is meant as allegory and was never meant to be "clear" as they put it.

A textual information is also a symbol conveyed by the means of a system of signs i.e. letter. In fact letters posses not only vowels and sounds but also numerical value which keeps a lot of inner symbolism within the letters and words.

Sometimes a seemingly ‘non-sensical’ inscription may hide within itself a formula for salvation.

Everything is a symbol actually. There is nothing in this world, which would not carry a symbol within it, from a full grown tree to growing grass, to sleep and awareness. Everything has inner symbol and tells a lot about who we are and what is our future destination.

Good carbo exercise...

Exercises do not require religious background, but the very movements they perform during salat can say a lot to someone who knows and can understand the symbol.


To feed the clergymen....

Zakat means purity afterall. Does it make someone pure if they buy clergymen a car or a mule or allow the latter not to work and live a parasitic lifestyle? I do not see purity, I see slavery.


Aim and throw practices... also a good carbo exercises...

There is nothing about aiming since there is no specific aim installed on the wall, therefore it does not matter how you throw it. The idea of throwing stones comes from formula "shaytanu rajiimm" meaning "Satan accursed". But looking down at specific linguistic details unveils the secret, of what the word stone "hajara" stands for and how to implement it in your personal life. What does it mean to stone the devil basically? It means a lot to someone who knows and feels its real effect. Throwing stone at the wall does not do the trick, fortunately or unfortunately.

I don't get any 'hidden' symbolism on the story above..

This requires "third eye" training (not related to the deluded new age concept). And if this topic is interesting to you may dwell more deeply into comparative religion.

90% of the gospels told the story about Jesus living and only 10% told the story about "Jesus dying / tortured".
But due to the popularity of death cult in middle east during that time, and excessive obsession about death, people tend to put more focus on "The Death of Jesus".

Death started with Adam already, and is very clearly represented actually. But of course people imagine a couple hiding their body parts from angry man and running away and then being barred from eating from the second tree.

Then introduce the next evolutionary stage for the sacrifice rituals..
Instead of spending money to buy lambs to feed the poor.. why not spending money into collective funds for student scholarship.
Explain, logically, the benefits and the potential impact of such ritual...

I would logically explain that we do not own anything in the first place and only use resources as guests, therefore we have no moral right to take more, to take excessive amount of human, animal and estate capital into our possession. In the Quran this sort of excess is called riba, which again is mistranslated as "giving loans". But the word means excess. Now tell it to Saudi or people loving good life but who call themselves muslims nonetheless. Islamic banks are no better than classical "loan-based" banks, they still aim at the same concept of accumulating money from profit and hierarchal distribution.

It is also important to note that you are not given limits of excess, nowhere in the Quran or the Gospel, although the Gospels emphasize on being poor is better than being rich. But there is nowhere written a limit of what excess is or otherwise defined, same as with majority of other concepts, thus the concept becomes complex to grasp. On the contrary, things like twelve tribes or seven heavens are given an exact amount of BUT they are painfully misunderstood. Twelve tribes become actual clans to the profane, which despite the lack of any evidence still keep millions of people believing into their historic existence; and the Seven Heavens become actual seven layers of atmosphere, which we know is not true based on observable facts. That is because the word and conveyed information itself is highly symbolic and require analysis of the Self in the first place. And how does one know if he/she lives in excess or not? By exercising the knowledge of the unified reality, awareness of unity and exercising compassion. Without understanding the unity one will dwell into solipsism, and without feeling compassion towards suffering of others one becomes a psychopath who is unable to feel misery of others and therefore lacks instruments which would allow him to analyze his reality as opposite to others.

Now one other thing worthy of note is that the knowledge or awareness is not given from the beginning of human life and is meant to be acquired in the process of development. As such, world itself at its current state is but a ground of purification/purgatory and is meant to be cruel, unjust and tortuous, because crucial information is hidden from the beginning and is also kept hidden by the possessors of knowledge, i.e. the clergy, who are interested in keeping people in slavery. But the very moment one becomes 'awaken' one starts exercising his thoughts, emotions and actions into a better perspective thus 'programming' his experience into better, i.e. the Golden Rule, unless of course he does not transgress the limits and does not break the rule after becoming acquainted with it. The latter is possible and we can see super successful individuals and orders who manipulate people as the flock of sheep by using the psycho-social mechanism of mind control. They themselves have knowledge or a part of higher knowledge of cause and effect at least, but do not share it, because that's not what they want. They do not want a generation of sincere, standalone and mindful individuals, that does not benefit them. They need a flock of slaves which chooses between a "complex dilemma" of entering a slaughterhouse either from the left or the right side. They need a poor Chinese worker solving a complex dilemma on whether to hang himself after or before the lunch. Indeed, a complex question to ponder upon...

Economic reformations and evolution will not solve the problem as long as one nation or a cartel of nations live excessively exploiting the 'third world' of poverty and cheap labor. This is also the rule of balance, order and chaos. If there is an abundance of something in one place, there is poverty and lack on the other side.

Agree..
Ironically.. it was the 'satanic cults' who often claimed / posed as "God" / "Angel" and accuse those who dare to question their dogma as "Servant of Satan". I observed such pattern also exist in this forum.

Most churches willingly or unwillingly actually serve 'Satan' despite proclaiming "words of Christ". That is why it is important to study human psychology and anatomy. Even the fact that eyes create an upside down image due to their curvature means quite a bit as to how we should perceive this world and differentiate between real and illusory. So called fake Christians say the follow the Christ yet run in first rows to serve Uncle Sam. Muslims differ no better.

Today when they [authorities] will push the button, a lot of idiots both local and on the NATO/international levels will run mindlessly with arms killing each other as the flock runs in the slaughterhouse, choosing between right or left door to the slaughterhouse as it somehow makes them a real difference, because they haven't analyzed the situation they are subject to in the first place.
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amin

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 05:53:02 PM »
Yes, rituals help but mindless rituals never helps, be it have some hidden wisdom or whatsoever, MANY are just happy following others, so called prophets, saints swamis etc..in that some may be successfull in understanding the rituals and refine themselves with some reasoning others fall in the name of idolising things and believe those who propagate these without questions, finally cause damage to themselves and their generations.


For example ritual prayer is good, but believing in 24hrs prayer day and night never cant be good.
similarly everything has a limit and purpose, many not interested or have time in reasoning, believe stories blindly fall into ignorance.

Similarly penance can be good like doing regular hard excercies in a way it may help people gain immunity and strength, many do not worry about the reason and blindly believe in such things as it brought goodness to their forefathers.. but also they fail to see they have a changed lifestyle way different from their forefathers.


Modesty can be the best thing, as most rituals are to balance ourselves, and  escape from the effects of going to extremities and accepting and respecting others too has their own freedom.

imrankhawaja

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 11:17:00 PM »
level of intelligence gone so low with some individuals who cant even differentiate between NEED and RITUALS...

another ritual is eating food 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 times a day... sometimes  i feel myself in (strange) universe of brilliant minds  :elektro: :rotfl:

SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

good logic

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2018, 11:45:21 PM »
Peace Imran.
So rituals are not needs?
Is Sawm a ritual ?
One could argue different people have different needs and rituals and needs overlap.
Intelligence as we define it/see it can sometimes be the height of ignorance.

When we reflect brother, we can always see that we are not all that intelligent!
GOD bless you.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:” I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.”

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Makaveli

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2018, 06:04:31 AM »
Modesty can be the best thing, as most rituals are to balance ourselves, and  escape from the effects of going to extremities and accepting and respecting others too has their own freedom.

Well said  :sun:

level of intelligence gone so low with some individuals who cant even differentiate between NEED and RITUALS...

Ritual is an an action arising from convention or habit. People are subject to needs and habits since the day of their birth and yes, everything we do is a ritual.

People speak their everyday language yet think nothing about the meaning of the words they use.
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Jafar

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 09:00:40 AM »
So the ritual of sleeping and washing was set by men ? Or what do call rituals?

Adding the excellent explanation given by others..
Sleeping isn't a ritual but Telling Stories to A Child before sleeping is a ritual.
Benefits is apparent:
- Develops communication and bonding to a child
- Build Social and emotional development:
- Cognitive skills:
- Improves attention
- Improves personality and knowledge

Yet, depending on the stories / tales being told the ritual can also potentially develop 'bad characteristics' within a child, if the tales contained:
- Violence
- Hatred, especially hatred towards specific group (race / religion / nationality)
- Zealotry and Fanaticism portrayed as heroes

Washing is a component of ritual, definitely the benefits is well understood.
The Jews were among the group less impacted by the black death plague during the medieval era, due to their ritual of Mikveh, thus achieving better hygiene compared to the other group.

Rituals are by men and should be for men... and not men for rituals..

Feel free to abandon or change any bad or mindless rituals...

Quote from: amin
Yes, rituals help but mindless rituals never helps, be it have some hidden wisdom or whatsoever

 :bravo: Amen to that Amin..

Quote from: Makaveli
Death started with Adam already, and is very clearly represented actually. But of course people imagine a couple hiding their body parts from angry man and running away and then being barred from eating from the second tree.

Death started with Adam???
Since the context of discussion of the above was about Gospel,
There wasn't any mentioned of "Adam story" in the Gospels book (Mark Matt Luke)

With exception of Luke who oddly tried to build a genealogy of Jesus tracing him to Adam. Thus NOT Mr Jesus himself told the story about his own genealogy, because probably he didn't know that far either on his own genealogy. Just like all of us....

There wasn't any record of Mr Jesus explaining the "Sin / Death of Adam" that supposedly he tried to repair. Such thought developed much later, by others, after the demise of Mr Jesus...

Back to my main point on the matter..
The meanings of Mr Jesus story in the Gospel is clear, as I mentioned earlier, no need for additional efforts to unravel "hidden symbolism" inside.

The book of Gospel told the story about :
- Tyranny of Religion
- The hypocrisy of religious people.
- The fanatics are insane..
- The good might not always win (politically), but staying true to the principle of good is more important.
- Being sane / good might introduce risk of being framed, slandered, tortured, murdered but as mentioned above, staying true to the principle of good is more important.
- The most important commandment is treat others as you like to be treated, which acts as foundation of empathy.
- Rituals are for men and not men for rituals.

Quote from: Makaveli
Today when they [authorities] will push the button, a lot of idiots both local and on the NATO/international levels will run mindlessly with arms killing each other as the flock runs in the slaughterhouse, choosing between right or left door to the slaughterhouse as it somehow makes them a real difference, because they haven't analyzed the situation they are subject to in the first place.

Yet throughout the history; you will always find facts / story about human sanity in the midst of human insanity.
- Nazi Germany soldier who hides Jewish civilians in order to avoid him being transported to the camp.
- Japanese soldier who switched sides and fought for China after witnessing the horror performed by his own compatriots in Nanjing.
- Aztec warriors who helped the escape of captives bound to be sacrificed on the temple..
- A rich member of Jewish Sanhedrin (Council of Ulema) who helped and actually saved Jesus from death by crucifixion. (Joseph of Arimathea)
And many many untold others...


Makaveli

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Re: Petra is the Holy City of Islam
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2018, 11:08:14 AM »
Death started with Adam???
Since the context of discussion of the above was about Gospel,
There wasn't any mentioned of "Adam story" in the Gospels book (Mark Matt Luke)

Yes, death started with Adam and the spiritual narrative of the Gospels is as connected to Genesis as is the respective Quranic narratives. We spoke about archetypes and meanings behind rituals. An archetype is universal therefore I can clearly see the very same narrative in both the Genesis (and Summer-Akkadian counterparts for Adam-Eve found in ancient Babylonian literature) as well as the Gospels.

Jesus frequently used expression "son of Man" which is ben-Adam בן–אדם in the Hebrew Bible, or bani-Adama (children of Man/Adam) in the Quran, because it is related to the mission of Jesus and enlightenment.

It is noteworthy to know what Adam is as well, because it is not just a narrative of a "first man", but has a wider meaning connected to this name.

In fact, death is nothing more than a state of sleep and degradation, which is expressed in the creation myth and the "fall". Death is wider than a simple cesation of work of a body.

There wasn't any record of Mr Jesus explaining the "Sin / Death of Adam" that supposedly he tried to repair. Such thought developed much later, by others, after the demise of Mr Jesus...

Yes, there is, just from canonical Gospels alone, besides the gnostic coptic texts. Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.". In the Gospel of Mark 10:35–45 this episode takes place shortly after Jesus predicts his death.

no need for additional efforts to unravel "hidden symbolism" inside.

There is always a need in looking further and amount of hidden wisdom is inexhaustible as long as one is eager to see.

- Rituals are for men and not men for rituals.

He is mentioning here particularly the Sabbath, where he does not say rituals in general, but the commandments, and in this particular case - a contemplative-unifying mechanism/force, which Sabbath or salat (as an aspect of Sabbath) is. Yet the pharisees turned it into a day off, made it a civil law, which abrogates the innate meaning, which Jesus was "breaking" due to the meaninglessness of following such secularization of this teaching. Sabbath is not a day off, as I you may guess. But one who does not keep (adher to, stand by, follow) Sabbath will taste death, which is a state of commotion and ignorance. It is notable how he calls a Son of Man "lord of the Sabbath", and his disciples could not understand what he is saying, according to the canonical Gospel' narrative.

Yet throughout the history; you will always find facts / story about human sanity in the midst of human insanity.

Of course, there will always be cases when someone from amongst the minority will do something, which is completely counter-cultural and counter-social, since the latter is driven by other factors unrelated to the consciousness and soundness, which develops on individual level, but is driven by something what is called collective consciousness, which is something manipulated by many means. Thus it is paradoxal that one who is on his journey to unified spirituality has to, paradoxically, fastfrom the world as an apocryphal saying of Jesus goes. This way he/she will make his/her own mind and not throw tomatoes in someone who was officially proclaimed as heretic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
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