Author Topic: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!  (Read 2856 times)

Noon waalqalami

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1526
Re: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2015, 05:46:02 PM »
What in the world is this man Salih doing invoking and speaking to the dead, telling them he conveyed the message from Allah?

Note again, "YA qawmi", why in the world is this man addressing the dead?

Peace, were they all dead (i.e. 100% kill rate during the calamity) or did some of their folk survive along with them?

7:78/91 فاخذتهم so seized them الرجفه (the commotion, agitation, or convulsion; particularly a violent earthquake: or punishment that befalls a people) فاصبحوا so became they فى in دارهم homes theirs جاثمىن (bodies cast upon the ground or motionless; and dead)



FreedomStands

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2614
Re: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2015, 05:17:42 PM »
Peace Nonmushrik.

First, this is an assumption:

Both shuaib and salih are standing in the presence of mass corpses, saying "YA qawmi"

You are assuming this, Qoran does not say they are standing in the presence of mass corpses!

Second, I have given you an example and I used "Ya" -Oh my father"....  It is about my father ,not  in the presence of my father who is no longer.

 Salih,Shuaib... are speaking about their "Quawm"  not  in the presence of their "Quawm".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

lol this is so funny, because its so common for people to just imagine weird hilarious stuff that is never said.
Read these
Easy Religion in a Nutshell
http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html
This may answer many questions!
https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html
Kindly email me: foxyfoxgames@gmail.com

The Sardar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1329
  • Gender: Male
Re: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2018, 11:10:46 PM »
Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!

I am an atheist, not a Christian etc...

The Quran claims you should only invoke Allah ("YA Allah"), yet at the same time this "allah" endorses polytheist prophets who invoke the dead!

Salih invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed:

[Yusufali 7:77] Then they ham-strung the she camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying: �O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!�

[Yusufali 7:78] So the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes in the morning!

[Yusufali 7:79] So Salih left them, saying: �O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!�

Notice 7:79, Salih is addressing the dead in the vocative "YA qawmi".

What in the world is this man Salih doing invoking and speaking to the dead, telling them he conveyed the message from Allah?

Polytheist prophet 2, Shuaib invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed:

[Yusufali 7:91] But the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning!

[Yusufali 7:92] The men who reject Shu�aib became as if they had never been in the homes where they had flourished: the men who rejected Shu�aib � it was they who were ruined!

[Yusufali 7:93] So Shu�aib left them, saying:�O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!�

Note again, "YA qawmi", why in the world is this man addressing the dead?

In conclusion, the Quran endorses polytheism, invoking the dead. No wonder certain Muslims around the world say "YA rasulallah, YA Ali, assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu etc..."

To Quran alone Muslims who reject the Sunni tashahhud "assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu", which is clear polytheism. Now you have evidence that this practice is in the Quran and endorsed.


I know this has been a while and Nonmushrik is not here anymore but i want to adress this: Nowhere in the Quran does "Ya Allah" occurs.

And the arabic word for invoking is dua

Dal-Ayn-Waw (د ع و) = to seek, desire, ask, demand, call upon, invoke, ascribe, cry out, call out to, pray, supplicate, petition, require, need, summon, invite, assert, succour. (e.g. 'daAAa' in phonetic search engine).
Adopted son (adiya, pl. of da'iy).

Da'aa (prf. 3rd. p.m. sing.): He prayed, called.
Du'aa (prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.): They ascribed.
Da'utu (prf. 1st. p. sing.): I called.
Li Yad'u (prt. 3rd. p.m. sing.): Let him call; he might call.
Lam Yad'u (imp. 3rd. p.m.): Did not call us.
Yad'u (imp. 3rd. p.m.): He calls.
Yad'uuna (imp. 3rd. p.m. plu.): They call.
Yad'uu (imp. 2nd. p.m. sing.): Thou call.
Tad'uu (imp. 2nd. p.m. sing.): Thou call.
Tad'uu/Tad'uuna (acc./ imp. 1st. p. plu.): You call.
Nad'u/Nad'uu (imp. 1st. p. plu.): We call.
Ud'u (prt. 2nd. p.m. sing.): Thou call.
Ud'uu (prt. 2nd. p.m. plu.): Call you all.
Du'iya (pp. 3rd. p.m. sing.): He was called.
Du'uu (pip. 3rd. p.m. plu.): They were called.
Du'iitum (pp. 2nd. p.m. plu.): You were called.
Laa tad'u (prt. neg.): Do not call.
Da'uutum (prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.): You called.
Tud'auna (pip. 2nd. p.m. plu.): You are called.
Tad'uu/Tad'uuna (imp. 3rd. p.m. plu. VIII.): They ask for.
Tadda'uuna (imp. 2nd. p.m. plu. VIII.): You ask for.
Tud'aa (pip. 2nd. p.m. plu. VIII.): You will be summoned.
Yud'aa (pip. 3rd. p.m. sing. VIII.): He will be summoned.
Yud'auna (pip. 3rd. p.m. plu. VIII.): They will be summoned.
Daa'in/Daa'ii (act. pic. m. sing.): One who calls, summons.
Du'aa'un (v.n.): Supplication; prayer; call.
Du'aai (comb.): My prayer; calling.
Ad'iyaa (n. plu.): Adopted son.
Da'watun (v.n.): Call; claim; message; supplication; prayer.
Da'waahum (comb.): Their cry.

daAAa vb. (1)
perf. act. 2:186, 3:38, 7:189, 7:193, 8:24, 10:12, 10:22, 14:22, 18:52, 19:91, 25:13, 27:62, 28:64, 29:65, 30:25, 30:33, 31:32, 39:8, 39:49, 41:33, 44:22, 54:10, 71:5, 71:7, 71:8
impf. act. 2:221, 2:221, 3:61, 3:104, 3:153, 4:117, 6:40, 6:41, 6:41, 6:52, 6:56, 6:63, 6:71, 6:71, 6:108, 7:37, 7:193, 7:194, 7:197, 7:198, 10:12, 10:25, 10:66, 10:106, 11:62, 11:101, 12:33, 12:108, 13:14, 13:36, 14:9, 14:10, 16:20, 16:86, 17:11, 17:52, 17:57, 17:67, 17:71, 17:110, 18:14, 18:28, 18:57, 19:48, 19:48, 21:90, 22:12, 22:13, 22:62, 22:73, 23:117, 25:14, 25:68, 26:72, 26:213, 28:25, 28:41, 28:88, 29:42, 31:21, 31:30, 32:16, 35:6, 35:13, 35:14, 35:18, 35:40, 37:125, 38:51, 39:8, 39:38, 40:20, 40:26, 40:41, 40:41, 40:42, 40:42, 40:43, 40:66, 40:74, 41:5, 41:48, 42:13, 43:86, 44:55, 46:4, 46:5, 47:35, 52:28, 54:6, 57:8, 70:17, 72:18, 72:19, 72:20, 84:11, 96:17, 96:18
impv. 2:23, 2:61, 2:68, 2:69, 2:70, 2:60, 7:29, 7:55, 7:56, 7:134, 7:180, 7:194, 7:195, 10:38, 11:13, 16:125, 17:56, 17:110, 17:110, 22:67, 25:14, 28:64, 28:87, 33:5, 34:22, 40:14, 40:49, 40:50, 40:60, 40:65, 42:15, 43:49
perf. pass. 2:282, 24:48, 24:51, 33:53, 40:12
impf. pass. 3:23, 40:10, 42:28, 47:38, 48:16, 61:7, 68:42, 68:43
n.vb. 2:171, 3:38, 13:14, 14:39, 14:40, 17:11, 19:4, 19:48, 21:45, 24:63, 24:63, 25:77, 27:80, 30:52, 35:14, 40:50, 41:49, 41:51, 46:5, 71:6
pcple. act. 2:186, 20:108, 33:46, 46:31, 46:32, 54:6, 54:8

adiya n.m. (pl. of da'iy) 33:4, 33:37

dawa n.f. 7:5, 10:10, 10:10, 21:15

dawah n.f. 2:186, 10:89, 13:14, 14:44, 30:25, 40:43

idda'a vb. (8) impf. act. 36:57, 41:31, 67:27

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages: 49, 50, 51  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=d3w


Plus check the verses more before 7:77-79 & 7:91-93

Salih

7:73 والىا ثمود اخاهم صالحا قال ياقوم اعبدوا الله ما لكم من الاه غيره قد جاءتكم بينة من ربكم هاذه ناقة الله لكم ءاية فذروها تاكل فى ارض الله ولا تمسوها بسوء فياخذكم عذاب اليم
Wa-ila thamooda akhahum salihanqala ya qawmi oAAbudoo Allaha malakum min ilahin ghayruhu qad jaatkum bayyinatunmin rabbikum hathihi naqatu Allahi lakum ayatanfatharooha ta/kul fee ardi Allahi walatamassooha bisoo-in faya/khuthakum AAathabunaleemun
And to Thamud, We sent their brother Saleh, he said: "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him; clarity has come to you from your Lord, this is the camel of God, in her you have a sign, so leave her to eat in God's earth, and do not harm her, else the painful retribution will take you."

7:74 واذكروا اذ جعلكم خلفاء من بعد عاد وبواكم فى الارض تتخذون من سهولها قصورا وتنحتون الجبال بيوتا فاذكروا ءالاء الله ولا تعثوا فى الارض مفسدين
Waothkuroo ithjaAAalakum khulafaa min baAAdi AAadin wabawwaakumfee al-ardi tattakhithoona min suhooliha qusooranwatanhitoona aljibala buyootan faothkurooalaa Allahi wala taAAthaw fee al-ardimufsideena
"And remember that He made you successors after 'Aad, and He established you in the land so that you make palaces on its plains, and you carve homes in the mountains. So remember the grace of God, and do not roam the earth as corrupters."

7:75 قال الملا الذين استكبروا من قومه للذين استضعفوا لمن ءامن منهم اتعلمون ان صالحا مرسل من ربه قالوا انا بما ارسل به مؤمنون
Qala almalao allatheenaistakbaroo min qawmihi lillatheena istudAAifooliman amana minhum ataAAlamoona anna salihanmursalun min rabbihi qaloo inna bima orsilabihi mu/minoona
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from among them: "How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?" They said: "It is in that which he has been sent that we believe."

7:76 قال الذين استكبروا انا بالذى ءامنتم به كافرون
Qala allatheena istakbaroo innabiallathee amantum bihi kafiroona
Those who were arrogant said: "In that which you believe, we reject!"

7:77 فعقروا الناقة وعتوا عن امر ربهم وقالوا ياصالح ائتنا بما تعدنا ان كنت من المرسلين
FaAAaqaroo alnnaqata waAAatawAAan amri rabbihim waqaloo ya salihui/tina bima taAAiduna in kunta minaalmursaleena
They thus killed the camel and defied the command of their Lord, and they said: "O Saleh, bring us what you promised us if you are of the messengers!"

7:78 فاخذتهم الرجفة فاصبحوا فى دارهم جاثمين
Faakhathat-humu alrrajfatu faasbahoofee darihim jathimeena
The earthquake took them, thus they became lifeless in their home.

7:79 فتولىا عنهم وقال ياقوم لقد ابلغتكم رسالة ربى ونصحت لكم ولاكن لا تحبون الناصحين
Fatawalla AAanhum waqala yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalata rabbee wanasahtulakum walakin la tuhibboona alnnasiheena
Thus he turned away from them, and said: "My people, I have delivered to you the message of my Lord and advised you; but you do not like the advisers."

Shuayb

7:85 والىا مدين اخاهم شعيبا قال ياقوم اعبدوا الله ما لكم من الاه غيره قد جاءتكم بينة من ربكم فاوفوا الكيل والميزان ولا تبخسوا الناس اشياءهم ولا تفسدوا فى الارض بعد اصلاحها ذالكم خير لكم ان كنتم مؤمنين
Wa-ila madyana akhahumshuAAayban qala ya qawmi oAAbudoo Allaha malakum min ilahin ghayruhu qad jaatkum bayyinatunmin rabbikum faawfoo alkayla waalmeezana walatabkhasoo alnnasa ashyaahum walatufsidoo fee al-ardi baAAda islahiha thalikumkhayrun lakum in kuntum mu/mineena
And to Midyan, their brother Shu'ayb, he said: "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him. Clarity has come to you from your Lord, so give full weight and measure, and do not hold back from the people what belongs to them, and do not make corruption on the earth after it has been set right. That is better for you if you believe."

7:86 ولا تقعدوا بكل صراط توعدون وتصدون عن سبيل الله من ءامن به وتبغونها عوجا واذكروا اذ كنتم قليلا فكثركم وانظروا كيف كان عاقبة المفسدين
Wala taqAAudoo bikulli siratintooAAidoona watasuddoona AAan sabeeli Allahi man amanabihi watabghoonaha AAiwajan waothkuroo ithkuntum qaleelan fakaththarakum waonthurookayfa kana AAaqibatu almufsideena
"And do not stand on every path, robbing, and turning away from the path of God those who believe in Him, and you seek to make it crooked. And remember that you were few and He multiplied you; and see how is the retribution of the corrupters."

7:87 وان كان طائفة منكم ءامنوا بالذى ارسلت به وطائفة لم يؤمنوا فاصبروا حتىا يحكم الله بيننا وهو خير الحاكمين
Wa-in kana ta-ifatun minkum amanoobiallathee orsiltu bihi wata-ifatun lamyu/minoo faisbiroo hatta yahkumaAllahu baynana wahuwa khayru alhakimeena
"And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until God judges between us. He is the best of judges."

7:88 قال الملا الذين استكبروا من قومه لنخرجنك ياشعيب والذين ءامنوا معك من قريتنا او لتعودن فى ملتنا قال اولو كنا كارهين
Qala almalao allatheenaistakbaroo min qawmihi lanukhrijannaka ya shuAAaybu waallatheenaamanoo maAAaka min qaryatina aw lataAAoodunna feemillatina qala awa law kunna kariheena
And the leaders who became arrogant from among his people said: "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who have believed with you, or you shall return to our creed!" He said: "Will you force us?"

7:89 قد افترينا على الله كذبا ان عدنا فى ملتكم بعد اذ نجىانا الله منها وما يكون لنا ان نعود فيها الا ان يشاء الله ربنا وسع ربنا كل شىء علما على الله توكلنا ربنا افتح بيننا وبين قومنا بالحق وانت خير الفاتحين
Qadi iftarayna AAala Allahikathiban in AAudna fee millatikum baAAda ithnajjana Allahu minha wamayakoonu lana an naAAooda feeha illa an yashaaAllahu rabbuna wasiAAa rabbuna kulla shay-inAAilman AAala Allahi tawakkalna rabbanaiftah baynana wabayna qawmina bialhaqqiwaanta khayru alfatiheena
"We will then be inventing lies about God if we return to your creed after God has saved us from it; and we will not return to it except if God our Lord wills, our Lord encompasses everything with knowledge, in God we put our trust. Our Lord, make an opening between us and between our people with the truth, you are the best of openers."

7:90 وقال الملا الذين كفروا من قومه لئن اتبعتم شعيبا انكم اذا لخاسرون
Waqala almalao allatheenakafaroo min qawmihi la-ini ittabaAAtum shuAAayban innakum ithanlakhasiroona
And the leaders who rejected from among his people said: "If you follow Shu'ayb, then you are losers."

7:91 فاخذتهم الرجفة فاصبحوا فى دارهم جاثمين
Faakhathat-humu alrrajfatu faasbahoofee darihim jathimeena
The earthquake took them, thus they became lifeless in their home.

7:92 الذين كذبوا شعيبا كان لم يغنوا فيها الذين كذبوا شعيبا كانوا هم الخاسرين
Allatheena kaththabooshuAAayban kaan lam yaghnaw feeha allatheena kaththabooshuAAayban kanoo humu alkhasireena
Those who denied Shu'ayb, it is as if they had never prospered therein. Those who denied Shu'ayb, they were the losers.

7:93 فتولىا عنهم وقال ياقوم لقد ابلغتكم رسالات ربى ونصحت لكم فكيف ءاسىا علىا قوم كافرين
Fatawalla AAanhum waqala yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalati rabbee wanasahtulakum fakayfa asa AAala qawmin kafireena
Thus he turned away from them, and said: "My people, I have delivered to you the messages of my Lord and advised you. How can I feel sorry over a rejecting people?"

I honestly do know how Nonmushrik came to the conclusion that Salih & Shuayb was "invoking" the dead. Because when i check the verse deeply, it didn't seem they were invoking but was in great disappointment.

Firstly when Salih said: yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalata rabbee wanasahtulakum walakin la tuhibboona alnnasiheena
                                      "My people, I have delivered to you the message of my Lord and advised you; but you do not like the advisers."

The phrase "walakin la tuhibboona alnnasiheena" is in present tense.

And lastly Shuayb was saying:
yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalati rabbee wanasahtulakum fakayfa asa AAala qawmin kafireena
"My people, I have delivered to you the messages of my Lord and advised you. How can I feel sorry over a rejecting people?"

I honestly dont know how is this a polytheistic doctrine. He seemed be disappointed with a bit anger from to looks of it because if you checked the verses before 7:91-93, they did try to force Shuayb to come back to their creed who Shuayb said that they would be inventing lies about Allah/God (SWTAY) if Shuayb and his fellow believers would have returned to that creed. If you also check the similitude verse of 11:84 to 11:94 & about Shuayb's mission in Midyan & Salih's mission in Thamud of 11:61 to 11:69, you get more detail of these events in Midyan & Thamud at that time of Shuayb & Salih. Other than that, i fail to see a "polytheistic doctrine" even though there verses that say do not be polytheists/idolaters like 10:105:

10:105 وان اقم وجهك للدين حنيفا ولا تكونن من المشركين
Waan aqim wajhaka lilddeeni haneefanwala takoonanna mina almushrikeena
And set your face to the system of upright, and do not be of the polytheists/idolaters.

See more here: http://quranix.org/s/polytheist

Salam/Peace everyone and Allah/God (SWTAY) bless you all!





The Sardar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1329
  • Gender: Male
Re: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2018, 07:14:58 AM »
Hi huruf,

The "YA" in the Arabic text is in the vocative which means "invoking" not addressing.

(7:79:4)
yāqawmi
"O my people!      VOC  prefixed vocative particle ya
N  accusative masculine noun
PRON  1st person singular possessive pronoun
أداة نداء
اسم منصوب والياء المحذوفة ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة

vocative
ˈvɒkətɪv/
GRAMMAR
adjective
adjective: vocative
1.
relating to or denoting a case of nouns, pronouns, and adjectives in Latin and other languages, used in addressing or invoking a person or thing.
noun
noun: vocative; plural noun: vocatives
1.
a word in the vocative case.
the vocative case.
noun: the vocative


I honestly don't know how Nonmushirk missed that part. Plus also check the https://www.dictionary.com/browse/vocative

adjective
1.  Grammar. (in certain inflected languages, as Latin) noting or pertaining to a case used to indicate that a noun refers to a person or thing being addressed.

2.  of, relating to, or used in calling, specifying, or addressing.

The Sardar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1329
  • Gender: Male
Re: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2018, 08:51:08 AM »
Salih's mission in Thamud of 11:61 to 11:69,
Wait let me update this: 11:61 to 11:69 & 27:45 to 27:53 of Salih's mission in Thamud.

The Sardar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1329
  • Gender: Male
Re: Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2018, 09:01:24 AM »
Also going to leave this here:

27:80 انك لا تسمع الموتىا ولا تسمع الصم الدعاء اذا ولوا مدبرين
Innaka la tusmiAAu almawta walatusmiAAu alssumma aldduAAaa ithawallaw mudbireena
You cannot make the dead hear, nor can you make the deaf hear the call when they turn their backs and flee.

30:52 فانك لا تسمع الموتىا ولا تسمع الصم الدعاء اذا ولوا مدبرين
Fa-innaka la tusmiAAu almawtawala tusmiAAu alssumma aldduAAaaitha wallaw mudbireena
You cannot make the dead listen, nor can you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs.

*EDIT* Also if you noticed in 7:73 & 7:85, both Salih & Shuayb said YA QAWMI before they were lifeless so the "invoking" claim is incorrect, they were addressing them like an assembly or something like that.

Also 27:80 & 30:52 clearly states that you cannot make the dead listen or hear. So again makes no sense of "invoking the dead" & polytheist claim.

And i am not even sure addressing & invoking are the same, check the links from Cambrigde & Google dictionary

GOOGLE

ADDRESS
https://www.google.se/search?q=address+meaning&oq=addr&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i61j69i57j69i61j69i60j0.1594j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

INVOKE
https://www.google.se/search?ei=Sb7IW7PlKIXSrgSnvZvoDw&q=invoke+meaning&oq=invoke&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i67k1l4j0l6.160467.161944.0.162904.6.5.0.1.1.0.133.474.4j1.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.477...35i39k1.0.XXVhhoz7uQI

CAMBRIGDE

ADDRESS
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/address

INVOKE
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/invoke