Author Topic: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!  (Read 2397 times)

OnlyOneGod

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Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« on: June 29, 2015, 02:16:50 PM »
Why do most people here believe that we should not accept the hadith related to salat?

Ok I do agree that there is a lot of false info inserted into the hadith but why should we wholesale disregard the hadith literature altogether because of that? There may also be a lot of fact present in it. I feel that hadith such as that related to salat can be pretty accurate considering the fact that salat is such a vital part and a daily part of our faith in God. So obviously the Muslims from the time of the Prophet (PBUH) were doing it daily before the advent of the bukhari and muslim books.

I learned salat in the same way that my father and and grandfather learned it i.e. through our elders. We did not learn it through hadith literature. YES, we may do salat in a certain way which another group may not follow, but since Allah (swt) did not specify the exact way of salat then we may all be correct. So why not just do it in the way that other muslims have been doing it? I fail to see the need to be so anti-hadith where one is simply rejecting the form of prayer that was followed throughout history.

What exactly do people find so abhorrent about the form of salat followed by the sunnis and shias today? It is all about exclaiming the oneness and greatness of God and asking for betterment in this life and the hereafter for ourselves and our loved ones.

What exactly is it that ppl find so unacceptable about the way the sunni or shia do salat whereby they feel a need to invent their own ways for it?

FreedomStands

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 02:32:06 PM »
Why do most people here believe that we should not accept the hadith related to salat?

Ok I do agree that there is a lot of false info inserted into the hadith but why should we wholesale disregard the hadith literature altogether because of that? There may also be a lot of fact present in it. I feel that hadith such as that related to salat can be pretty accurate considering the fact that salat is such a vital part and a daily part of our faith in God. So obviously the Muslims from the time of the Prophet (PBUH) were doing it daily before the advent of the bukhari and muslim books.

I learned salat in the same way that my father and and grandfather learned it i.e. through our elders. We did not learn it through hadith literature. YES, we may do salat in a certain way which another group may not follow, but since Allah (swt) did not specify the exact way of salat then we may all be correct. So why not just do it in the way that other muslims have been doing it? I fail to see the need to be so anti-hadith where one is simply rejecting the form of prayer that was followed throughout history.

What exactly do people find so abhorrent about the form of salat followed by the sunnis and shias today? It is all about exclaiming the oneness and greatness of God and asking for betterment in this life and the hereafter for ourselves and our loved ones.

What exactly is it that ppl find so unacceptable about the way the sunni or shia do salat whereby they feel a need to invent their own ways for it?

2:43
And keep up salat and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.

2:44
Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense?

2:45
And seek aid in steadfast patience and salat: and this, indeed, is a hard thing for all but the humble in spirit,

2:46
who know with certainty that they shall meet their Sustainer and that unto Him they shall return.

2:142
The foolish of the people will say: What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed? Say: Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

2:143
Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

2:144
We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

2:13
And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe? are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not.

2:16-
These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.

Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,

Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.

Or like abundant rain from the cloud in which is utter darkness and thunder and lightning; they put their fingers into their ears because of the thunder peal, for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the unbelievers.

The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things.

O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).

76:30
But you cannot will it unless God wills : for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.

81:29
But you cannot will it unless God, the Sustainer of all the worlds, wills

5:6-
O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your [wet] hands lightly over your head, and [wash] your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total ablution, purify yourselves. But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.

And [always] remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you, and the solemn pledge by which He bound you to Himself when you said, "We have heard, and we pay heed." Hence, remain conscious of God: verily, God has full knowledge of what is in the hearts [of men].

3:43
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

22:77
O you who believe! bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may succeed.

2:125
And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.

"the biggest relief in life is simply coming to terms with reality, surrendering to the truth of things, it seems easy but when Allah has put people in blissful delusions there is nothing that can wake them up from their dream, the favor of Allah is the awakening of people, but we wake up to the truth of things which is not all that pleasant, but we hope and pray to Allah that we're given the best in this life and the next and any of our experiences, and there is no guarantee for any of us that we will attain it, but we strive hard to make goodness in-front of us always and hope that Allah saves us from trouble and suffering, and that is the way of the Prophets, and the religion of the angels
abrahimesker: when I say religion of the angels, we just have a few clues but that give lots of information:

They seem to not like the trouble and bloodshed or plight of the believers, but are surrendered and can't do anything about it except as Allah wills. They say that for Allah it is simply a matter of Be and it is, and they are militant and warriors when they are sent on those tasks, and are transformed freely Allah adding to their creation freely, and they are surrendered also to ignorance, that they know that they don't know except what Allah tells them, and that they glorify Allah unceasingly but we know the glorification of Allah is simply stating facts, just like they stated the facts regarding Be and it Is they never said it is good or anything. They are the ones who have surrendered and surrender to chaos, to war, to whatever Allah wants to create and do.
abrahimesker: then the Qur'an brings this imagery in of the eyes and the ears being witnesses and recorders, and that people see themselves doing evil with their eyes and their own hands, and the imagery of what ones own hands send forth and stuff, so one should only witness themselves doing justice and goodness, charity, all that good stuff, restraint
abrahimesker: and the angels are in support of the good people, as should we, basically we should be as much like the Prophets and angels as possible, the angels philosophy and their practice of unflagging meditative thinking and truth and surrender, and the Prophets in their softness, sincerity, sensitivity, compassion, and worship and all that
abrahimesker: and to be extremists, but not in silly things, but extremists in goodness, because there is nothing to hold on to really, but to be good to ourselves and good to others and kind and charitable to our own families and everyone we encounter, as representatives of justice and excellence in a world where it is scarce
abrahimesker: and if in the end we are cast in hell for that, then there wasn't really a chance for us anyway, it should be that we tried our absolute best"

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http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html
This may answer many questions!
https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html
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FreedomStands

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 02:36:22 PM »
The standard prayer is fine, is a meditative exercise for one's own benefit.

20:132
Enjoin prayer on thy people, and be constant therein. We ask thee not to provide sustenance: We provide it for thee. But the (fruit of) the Hereafter is for righteousness.

62:9
O ye who believe! When the call is heard for the prayer of the day of congregation, hasten unto remembrance of Allah and leave your trading. That is better for you if ye did but know.

2:110
And be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues; for, whatever good deed you send ahead for your own selves, you shall find it with God: behold, God sees all that you do.
Read these
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http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html
This may answer many questions!
https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html
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OnlyOneGod

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 02:52:02 PM »
I have read all these ayahs before and I believe wholeheartedly in them. What I will take from your reply is this:

"The standard prayer is fine, is a meditative exercise for one's own benefit."

And that is what I want to discuss with the people on this forum. I personally think the standard prayer is fine ... it is about my submission to God five times a day which gives me a lot of satisfaction.

Quran 13:28
"Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah: for without doubt in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction."


runninglikezebras

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 03:12:13 PM »
Agreed.  Therapeutic at the least.

Peace

FreedomStands

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »
I have read all these ayahs before and I believe wholeheartedly in them. What I will take from your reply is this:

"The standard prayer is fine, is a meditative exercise for one's own benefit."

And that is what I want to discuss with the people on this forum. I personally think the standard prayer is fine ... it is about my submission to God five times a day which gives me a lot of satisfaction.

Quran 13:28
"Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah: for without doubt in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction."

Yep, me too.

The standard prayer covers all the things mentioned in the mainstream translations of the Qur'an, and exceeds the other religions which also have practices similar which are not often followed (Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Christians all have formal worship practices that include ablution, standing, bowing, and prostration while reciting praises and prayers in the Muslim style but most people don't do them).

The practices are very ancient, many people say they are "pagan" which is true, since the ancient "pagans" often were given the same messages as well, the Ancient Egyptians worshiped in this fashion, and the Sumerians, and the Chinese, and even the Northern Europeans and others have records of this same practice, Native Americans, Aztecs, the whole world worshiped like this, except sometimes they would later do it to idols which were representations of concepts usually like "Justice" "Love" "Fertility" or whatever.

The majority of the people on this website who are active users seem to not pray, and if they pray they do less or some sporadic or minimized version, and they don't fast, or they do some greatly minimized version, and they don't believe in angels or jinns or have strange ideas, some of them even believe the Earth is Flat while not believing in other things like Jinn.

So here you can witness what might be a tremendous miracle and curse from Allah, where the Qur'an can be used to misguide people as well as guide people, and widespread hypocrisy even in the face of revelations, and people who are totally convinced and bold in what they are doing.

They reject often that Allah should be feared, they reject that Allah is in control of everything, they reject science sometimes, they say "peace" and then insult each other.

Enjoy the forum though! It can be fun to vent and get your ideas out, but you won't find many people to be very cooperative or nice really, you'll find they will make  some rude remarks while wishing you peace.

It can help maybe if you imagine them all to be furry monkeys. Actually no maybe that doesn't help, that just made me really angry. Now I laughed.
Read these
Easy Religion in a Nutshell
http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html
This may answer many questions!
https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html
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OnlyOneGod

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 03:37:41 PM »
Yep, me too.

The standard prayer covers all the things mentioned in the mainstream translations of the Qur'an, and exceeds the other religions which also have practices similar which are not often followed (Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Christians all have formal worship practices that include ablution, standing, bowing, and prostration while reciting praises and prayers in the Muslim style but most people don't do them).

The practices are very ancient, many people say they are "pagan" which is true, since the ancient "pagans" often were given the same messages as well, the Ancient Egyptians worshiped in this fashion, and the Sumerians, and the Chinese, and even the Northern Europeans and others have records of this same practice, Native Americans, Aztecs, the whole world worshiped like this, except sometimes they would later do it to idols which were representations of concepts usually like "Justice" "Love" "Fertility" or whatever.

The majority of the people on this website who are active users seem to not pray, and if they pray they do less or some sporadic or minimized version, and they don't fast, or they do some greatly minimized version, and they don't believe in angels or jinns or have strange ideas, some of them even believe the Earth is Flat while not believing in other things like Jinn.

So here you can witness what might be a tremendous miracle and curse from Allah, where the Qur'an can be used to misguide people as well as guide people, and widespread hypocrisy even in the face of revelations, and people who are totally convinced and bold in what they are doing.

They reject often that Allah should be feared, they reject that Allah is in control of everything, they reject science sometimes, they say "peace" and then insult each other.

Enjoy the forum though! It can be fun to vent and get your ideas out, but you won't find many people to be very cooperative or nice really, you'll find they will make  some rude remarks while wishing you peace.

It can help maybe if you imagine them all to be furry monkeys. Actually no maybe that doesn't help, that just made me really angry. Now I laughed.

"The majority of the people on this website who are active users seem to not pray, and if they pray they do less or some sporadic or minimized version, and they don't fast, or they do some greatly minimized version, and they don't believe in angels or jinns or have strange ideas, some of them even believe the Earth is Flat while not believing in other things like Jinn."

Ok well I was not aware of that ... the impression I got is that the people here believe in the Qur'an as the message of God and therefore believed in it wholeheartedly. We believe in Jinns because we believe in the word of Allah (Swt). Not to be rude to anyone, but I would like to know why they do not pray, believe in Jinns etc?

"So here you can witness what might be a tremendous miracle and curse from Allah, where the Qur'an can be used to misguide people as well as guide people, and widespread hypocrisy even in the face of revelations, and people who are totally convinced and bold in what they are doing."

Do these people believe in the oneness of God? Do they Believe in the angels, the judgment day and message of God (i.e Quran)? If yes then it is between Allah (swt) and their souls on the day of judgement if they are wrong. You or me are no ones to pass judgement on them.

"They reject often that Allah should be feared, they reject that Allah is in control of everything"

I believe that Allah (swt) does not aim to be feared. He is the most just the most merciful. He is the creator of all that there is. But since he asks us to follow his commands and when we don't, we are told about the consequences about disobeying our creator. But I don't know how the others on this forum may be talking about Allah (swt). What I state is simply my Belief.

"they reject science sometimes"

To their own determent I say.

"Enjoy the forum though! It can be fun to vent and get your ideas out, but you won't find many people to be very cooperative or nice really, you'll find they will make  some rude remarks while wishing you peace."

To be honest I have found much worse while trying to converse with people on other supposedly "muslim" forums. I find the conversation here to be much more decent and constructive, even if the parties don't agree amongst themselves.

FreedomStands

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 04:29:01 PM »
"The majority of the people on this website who are active users seem to not pray, and if they pray they do less or some sporadic or minimized version, and they don't fast, or they do some greatly minimized version, and they don't believe in angels or jinns or have strange ideas, some of them even believe the Earth is Flat while not believing in other things like Jinn."

Ok well I was not aware of that ... the impression I got is that the people here believe in the Qur'an as the message of God and therefore believed in it wholeheartedly. We believe in Jinns because we believe in the word of Allah (Swt). Not to be rude to anyone, but I would like to know why they do not pray, believe in Jinns etc?

"So here you can witness what might be a tremendous miracle and curse from Allah, where the Qur'an can be used to misguide people as well as guide people, and widespread hypocrisy even in the face of revelations, and people who are totally convinced and bold in what they are doing."

Do these people believe in the oneness of God? Do they Believe in the angels, the judgment day and message of God (i.e Quran)? If yes then it is between Allah (swt) and their souls on the day of judgement if they are wrong. You or me are no ones to pass judgement on them.

"They reject often that Allah should be feared, they reject that Allah is in control of everything"

I believe that Allah (swt) does not aim to be feared. He is the most just the most merciful. He is the creator of all that there is. But since he asks us to follow his commands and when we don't, we are told about the consequences about disobeying our creator. But I don't know how the others on this forum may be talking about Allah (swt). What I state is simply my Belief.

"they reject science sometimes"

To their own determent I say.

"Enjoy the forum though! It can be fun to vent and get your ideas out, but you won't find many people to be very cooperative or nice really, you'll find they will make  some rude remarks while wishing you peace."

To be honest I have found much worse while trying to converse with people on other supposedly "muslim" forums. I find the conversation here to be much more decent and constructive, even if the parties don't agree amongst themselves.

I ask them the same questions, why? It often seems to stem from the belief that the mainstream translations of the Qur'an are incorrect and that the words have different meanings or intentions, so since they don't believe in jinn they consider it absurd and look for other definitions or concepts for jinn (often that jinn is a reference to humans), but at the same time some of the people who do that also consider the Earth flat and stuff, so its pretty weird what goes on here sometimes.

Very many of them seem to take the Qur'an as an important text which they always refer to.

My views are generally in accordance with mainstream Islam except I'm not very fond of the bad things written in the Hadiths but I take the Hadiths as what they are, stories written some time after anyone supposedly mentioned in them was long dead.

As for the fear thing, not to correct you or anything, but I was basing that statement on things like:

3:102
O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.

http://www.google.ca/cse?cx=partner-pub-9671514608807458:3428093302&ie=UTF-8&q=fear+Allah&sa=Search&ref=www.islamawakened.com/quran/&gws_rd=cr&ei=jNSRVc_iDZH2oAShqoeoDg#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=fear%20Allah&gsc.page=1
Read these
Easy Religion in a Nutshell
http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html
This may answer many questions!
https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html
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theNabster

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 05:34:47 PM »
@FS,

stop sniping, not good for you,

all this energy you are expanding being cynical about some here could be put to better use,

such as learning Arabic, then you could decide for yourself what the fuss is really about.

as Allah says, listen to what is being said and follow the better course thereof...

Peace.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

Pavlov

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Re: Salat as per the mainstream muslim tradition!
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 05:47:35 PM »
Good thread!  I have decided, God willing, to start taking Arabic classes this fall and learn Arabic well enough so that I can translate the Quran and hadith (both Sunni and Shia collections, since I do notice many Quranist - a term I do not consider pejorative - have a residual Sunni bias in their approach to the  Quran while I tend to believe the Mutazilites (and therefore the Shia, also) are less likely to get things wrong perhaps because those sects don't believe in abrogation of Quranic what's, at least consciously, except for the Agha Khanites. It also seems that both the Sunni and Shias have added extra lines to the Adthan (in the Shia case, because Muhawiya the Caliph after the murder of Ali Ibn Talib, the 4th Caliph, had the family of Ali cursed from the Friday Pulpit).  These are my conclusions based on reading Sunni and Shia hadith and histories, so if you disagree with my conclusions, it's fine. 😀

I notice too that some Quran Alone don't pray Salat prayer, and in my opinion it saddens me because the Quran commands it, so they are losing out.  At least make Salat as best as one's understanding leads according to Quran teaching. 

My Kindle Fire makes spelling corrections and suggestions and every time I spell Ali Ibn Talib, it gets auto-corrected to Taliban, which is irritating! The Taliban would hate Ali, according to my reading of history.