Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways

[Novice]

Why do most people here believe that we should not accept the hadith related to salat?

Ok I do agree that there is a lot of false info inserted into the hadith but why should we wholesale disregard the hadith literature altogether because of that? There may also be a lot of fact present in it. I feel that hadith such as that related to salat can be pretty accurate considering the fact that salat is such a vital part and a daily part of our faith in God. So obviously the Muslims from the time of the Prophet (PBUH) were doing it daily before the advent of the bukhari and muslim books.

And how do you know that and how you can verify it without hadith?

People believe through generations that Jesus is son of god. People believe through generations that stone idols can help them. Can we say that they are right because their passed generations had been doing it?

I learned salat in the same way that my father and and grandfather learned it i.e. through our elders. We did not learn it through hadith literature. YES, we may do salat in a certain way which another group may not follow, but since Allah (swt) did not specify the exact way of salat then we may all be correct. So why not just do it in the way that other muslims have been doing it? I fail to see the need to be so anti-hadith where one is simply rejecting the form of prayer that was followed throughout history.

Yes for example Christians and Hindus say the same.

What exactly do people find so abhorrent about the form of salat followed by the sunnis and shias today? It is all about exclaiming the oneness and greatness of God and asking for betterment in this life and the hereafter for ourselves and our loved ones.

One can do that without a ritualized practice anytime and anywhere all by yourself.

What exactly is it that ppl find so unacceptable about the way the sunni or shia do salat whereby they feel a need to invent their own ways for it?

Because a ritual is enforced on people without any base in Qur'an.
3:190-1
إِنَّ فِى خَلۡقِ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَٱخۡتِلَـٰفِ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَٱلنَّہَارِ لَأَيَـٰتٍ۬ لِّأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ (١٩٠) ٱلَّذِينَ يَذۡكُرُونَ ٱللَّهَ قِيَـٰمً۬ا وَقُعُودً۬ا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمۡ وَيَتَفَڪَّرُونَ فِى خَلۡقِ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقۡتَ هَـٰذَا بَـٰطِلاً۬ سُبۡحَـٰنَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ ٱلنَّارِ (١٩١)
Surely, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for the people of wisdom, (190) Who remember Allah standing and sitting, and (lying) on their sides, and ponder on the creation of the heavens and the earth (and say) ?Our Lord, You have not created all this in vain. We proclaim Your purity. So, save us from the punishment of Fire. (191)

May our Rub guide us to His guidance.

[Wakas]

peace onlyonegod,

I like your question. The answer to it may be simple however. What does Al Quran say about salat, and its various criteria etc? Once you know this, does your salat conform to it? Yes/no.

This list may help: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm


peace reel,

hadiths say Prophet Muhammad prayed only twice and then the person asked why then they are doing it 5 times. I am looking for this hadith, but can't find it. If you come across it please let me know.

See:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims
http://www.urirubin.com/downloads/articles/morning.pdf

[Man of Faith]

@ Man of Faith
Brother, I was reading an intense debate of someone who followed Quran vs Sunnis. It was at a forum. I noticed that one of sunnis pinpointed that hadiths say Prophet Muhammad prayed only twice and then the person asked why then they are doing it 5 times. I am looking for this hadith, but can't find it. If you come across it please let me know. My research on the work of hadith is bringing things similar to clownish official 9/11 tales. But so far what I have gathered is that during Shafi's time, there was no official times for salaat. It also sounded like Muslims didn't pray everyday. It was a very personal decision for each and he was angry about it.

Obviously it is like this. Quran does not impose any prayer ritual. But men and women of all ages have prayed to their Sustainer including strict anti-paganists like Jesus.

Be well

[reel]

peace onlyonegod,

I like your question. The answer to it may be simple however. What does Al Quran say about salat, and its various criteria etc? Once you know this, does your salat conform to it? Yes/no.

This list may help: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm


peace reel,


See:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims
http://www.urirubin.com/downloads/articles/morning.pdf

Thanks for the sources. Bookmarked.

Obviously it is like this. Quran does not impose any prayer ritual. But men and women of all ages have prayed to their Sustainer including strict anti-paganists like Jesus.

Be well

The writings of the earliest traditionalists are eye openers. Truly, hadith books are the grossest things ever happened to Islam. The largest baskets of lies ever made! 

[Man of Faith]

The writings of the earliest traditionalists are eye openers. Truly, hadith books are the grossest things ever happened to Islam. The largest baskets of lies ever made! 

I concur to 100%.

But even without the hadith books Quran is a mess and the ones who came up with the current interpretation were the same people who wrote them since they repeat the same mistakes as is in the interpretation of Quran in terms of wordings. These fellows invented the Islam sect using an otherwise innocent scripture.

Be well

[FindingRightPath]

When I pray to my Master, I reverently ask.
Whenever, wherever, ... and without gymnastics.

It's intuitive, it's rational, & it works [if you know what you ought to ask for].

Peace,

That's how I do it too, but then such type of prayer I used to do since childhood from what I can remember apart from doing ritual Salat as well. So, I don't even know if it counts. Just that now I am conscious of it, do it more often I guess, and know what I am saying unlike before where I didn't use to understand most of what I was saying. I am not really sure over the ritual Salat and Hajj. I will come back to ritual Salat later by searching more about it to make sure which is the right method. But Hajj doesn't even make sense since God is everywhere, so I don't get how can a perticular place be a house of God? Also, how do we even make sure the place described in Quran, if it even means to refer to some house, is the place where Mecca is? Anyway, this supposed house of God doesn't make sense to me.

[Man of Faith]

Also, how do we even make sure the place described in Quran, if it even means to refer to some house, is the place where Mecca is?

I have seen a photograph of the site from the late 1800's. It did not look like a place where people "danced" around a cubic building. One building (that must be demolished today) was very closed to the cubic building and obstructed a circular path around it.

There is a concave remnant on one side of the building demonstrating that the building was not always cubic. In historical accounts, some hundred years ago the building fell apart and has to be reconstructed due to soil erosion. Whether it did become cubic by then is unclear.

Also, how do we even make sure the place described in Quran, if it even means to refer to some house, is the place where Mecca is?

The way I interpret Quran there is no physical location called Mecca nor do I recognize that Quran speaks of a building.

Anyway, this supposed house of God doesn't make sense to me.

Neither does it do to me. It is the type of symbolism that is prominent in Paganism. Holy images of gods clearly against the ancient 'Ten Commandments'. There is nothing holy in the flesh except some people who control it.

But Hajj doesn't even make sense since God is everywhere, so I don't get how can a perticular place be a house of God?

As far as my current understanding goes, Hajj means the type of contribution a person does by putting aside his or her own interests and has nothing to do with pilgrimage. To help an old woman across the street and rejecting a reward could be Hajj . To help a person by tutoring spirituality and rejecting a reward could be Hajj.

Due to the fact that Sustainer lacks any apparent needs as per the Sustainer's own words it would be logical to say that symbolism is also unneeded. Doing some ritual is tantamount to an attempt at bribing for it is just mere words. There are enough words in the world but little proper activity.

That's how I do it too, but then such type of prayer I used to do since childhood from what I can remember apart from doing ritual Salat as well. So, I don't even know if it counts.

What you say counts, but the Sustainer already knew what you requested before you even opened your mouth. Yet with faith prayers are answered. The sole purpose with prayers is practical, i.e. to do what the word is used to signify, pray/request. As for parroting of words, like the first chapter of the Quran or the prayer Jesus suggested in the Biblical Gospels is for your own benefit to remind yourself of what must be done and why you ended the words in tradition with 'amen' which means "be it so". That did not mean that the person should rest lazily and the Sustainer fulfill the cause for 'amen' but the person supposed to realize themselves in what they uttered.

I will come back to ritual Salat later by searching more about it to make sure which is the right method.

You may have to search your whole life unless you look in the right place and for the right thing. Or learn to trust the right people.

Be well

[OnlyOneGod]

And how do you know that and how you can verify it without hadith?

People believe through generations that Jesus is son of god. People believe through generations that stone idols can help them. Can we say that they are right because their passed generations had been doing it?

Yes for example Christians and Hindus say the same.

One can do that without a ritualized practice anytime and anywhere all by yourself.

Because a ritual is enforced on people without any base in Qur'an.
3:190-1
إِنَّ فِى خَلۡقِ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَٱخۡتِلَـٰفِ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَٱلنَّہَارِ لَأَيَـٰتٍ۬ لِّأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ (١٩٠) ٱلَّذِينَ يَذۡكُرُونَ ٱللَّهَ قِيَـٰمً۬ا وَقُعُودً۬ا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمۡ وَيَتَفَڪَّرُونَ فِى خَلۡقِ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقۡتَ هَـٰذَا بَـٰطِلاً۬ سُبۡحَـٰنَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ ٱلنَّارِ (١٩١)
Surely, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for the people of wisdom, (190) Who remember Allah standing and sitting, and (lying) on their sides, and ponder on the creation of the heavens and the earth (and say) ?Our Lord, You have not created all this in vain. We proclaim Your purity. So, save us from the punishment of Fire. (191)

May our Rub guide us to His guidance.

"People believe through generations that Jesus is son of god. People believe through generations that stone idols can help them. Can we say that they are right because their passed generations had been doing it?"

Well the reason I don't agree with this comparison in certain aspects is that, unlike Christianity, Islam was a thriving religion and Muslims were commanding a nation state at the time of the death of the Prophet (PBUH). Therefore there were thousands of adherents to Islam who would pass down the form of prayer that most Muslims currently adhere to. And the reason they would do this is because Allah (swt) has made prayer a DAILY form of worship for us Muslims. Although I may think that certain statements of the Prophet (PBUH) and certain historical points about his life may have been distorted by the time that they reached people like Bukhari and Muslim. But the major elements of the religion which were being followed by thousands would be somewhat in tact.

"One can do that without a ritualized practice anytime and anywhere all by yourself."

If you think that this form of prayer was not supposed to be a ritual then how do you explain Allah (swt) telling us how to cleanse ourselves BEFORE performing salaat? Does that not say to you that this is supposed to be ritualized in some way? By going through the whole process of wudhu you are preparing yourself for a ritual i.e. salaat that Allah (swt) commands throughout the Quran.

[OnlyOneGod]

The problem is that you do not know whether the practice is originally authentic because it may just be something that someone in the past dogmatically enforced by some authority claiming it was from their god and they were in a good standing spiritually even if they were not. Then without proper reflection one may be doing something like lemmings following each other off a cliff.

Be well

Like I said earlier to another post. Islam at the time of the death of the Prophet (PBUH) was not a fringe belief in Arabia, it was a thriving religion with a massive following. Those followers of Islam for sure would have taught the way of salaat to their family and friends the same way we (who were born muslim) were taught salaat from our elders, as salaat is something which is performed daily by all.

I would find issue with the whole thing if there was something in the traditional salaat that would go against the message of the Quran. I don't see that happening so I fail to see the need for inventing new ways to perform salaat.

[OnlyOneGod]

This is what Sunnis say in salaat:
I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

How did prophet Muhammad say that?

I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that I am His slave and Messenger.

What Allah says about this?
Quran 63:1 When the hypocrites come to you, [O Muhammad], they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah ." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars.

Next lines in Salaat:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on Muhammad and
On the family and true followers of Muhammad
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.

How Prophet said it:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on me and
On the family and true followers of me
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.

I am not saying that hadiths wrote that's how he prayed. But the sayings of salaat written in it does discriminate other prophets which in Islam is actually not allowed.

3:84 (O Prophet!) Say: 'We believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and to Issac and Jacob and his descendents, and the teachings which Allah gave to Moses and Jesus and to other Prophets. We make no distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. And whoever seeks a way other than Islam (the way of submission), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers.

Throughout the history, human sacrifice was also a norm, but that doesn't make it right.

And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.6:116

I am never gonna stop anyone from following what he feels is right, but I would be wary of someone who takes lessons from tabloids instead of the protected true source.

"I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

How did prophet Muhammad say that?

I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that I am His slave and Messenger."

Allah (swt) also tells the Prophet (PBUH) in the Quran to not think that he is crazy, but he should believe that this message is from Allah (SWT). So in prayer he himself is also reaffirming his belief in his duty put on him from God, while were are affirming our belief in his prophethood. I don't see anything wrong with that.

"How Prophet said it:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on me and
On the family and true followers of me
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great."

The first part where WE say it when we say a prayer for our Prophet and his followers i.e. us muslims. Why should we say the prayer for the Prophet? because he also was a man and also required the forgiveness of Allah (SWT) for his transgressions (if any). The second part where the Prophet (PBUH) says that prayer is a more personalized prayer to God asking for help for himself and his followers. How is this wrong?

"I am not saying that hadiths wrote that's how he prayed. But the sayings of salaat written in it does discriminate other prophets which in Islam is actually not allowed."

In the above we are accepting the fact that Allah (SWT) sent grace and honor on Abrahim (PBUH) and his followers i.e. Abrahim (PBUH) progeny includes all the major religions including judiasm and christianity. So we are simply asking God to give us the same grace and honor which he bestowed on his earlier Prophets.

"And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.6:116"

If we talk about what MOST of the people in the world believe then we would be talking about athiesm, christianity, judiasm, hinduism etc Muslims are not the majority. And if we talk about assumptions then creating our own way of salaat for no solid reason other than the rejection of Hadith and sunni/shia sects seems more presumptuous to me.