Author Topic: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways  (Read 41020 times)

OnlyOneGod

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Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« on: June 29, 2015, 02:12:57 PM »
Why do most people here believe that we should not accept the hadith related to salat?

Ok I do agree that there is a lot of false info inserted into the hadith but why should we wholesale disregard the hadith literature altogether because of that? There may also be a lot of fact present in it. I feel that hadith such as that related to salat can be pretty accurate considering the fact that salat is such a vital part and a daily part of our faith in God. So obviously the Muslims from the time of the Prophet (PBUH) were doing it daily before the advent of the bukhari and muslim books.

I learned salat in the same way that my father and and grandfather learned it i.e. through our elders. We did not learn it through hadith literature. YES, we may do salat in a certain way which another group may not follow, but since Allah (swt) did not specify the exact way of salat then we may all be correct. So why not just do it in the way that other muslims have been doing it? I fail to see the need to be so anti-hadith where one is simply rejecting the form of prayer that was followed throughout history.

What exactly do people find so abhorrent about the form of salat followed by the sunnis and shias today? It is all about exclaiming the oneness and greatness of God and asking for betterment in this life and the hereafter for ourselves and our loved ones.

What exactly is it that ppl find so unacceptable about the way the sunni or shia do salat whereby they feel a need to invent their own ways for it?

reel

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 06:38:23 PM »
This is what Sunnis say in salaat:
I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

How did prophet Muhammad say that?

I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that I am His slave and Messenger.

What Allah says about this?
Quran 63:1 When the hypocrites come to you, [O Muhammad], they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah ." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars.

Next lines in Salaat:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on Muhammad and
On the family and true followers of Muhammad
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.

How Prophet said it:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on me and
On the family and true followers of me
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.

I am not saying that hadiths wrote that's how he prayed. But the sayings of salaat written in it does discriminate other prophets which in Islam is actually not allowed.

3:84 (O Prophet!) Say: 'We believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and to Issac and Jacob and his descendents, and the teachings which Allah gave to Moses and Jesus and to other Prophets. We make no distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. And whoever seeks a way other than Islam (the way of submission), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers.

 
Quote
I fail to see the need to be so anti-hadith where one is simply rejecting the form of prayer that was followed throughout history.
Throughout the history, human sacrifice was also a norm, but that doesn't make it right.

And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.6:116

I am never gonna stop anyone from following what he feels is right, but I would be wary of someone who takes lessons from tabloids instead of the protected true source.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

FreedomStands

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 06:49:13 PM »
This is what Sunnis say in salaat:
I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

How did prophet Muhammad say that?

I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah
And I bear witness that I am His slave and Messenger.

What Allah says about this?
Quran 63:1 When the hypocrites come to you, [O Muhammad], they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah ." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars.

Next lines in Salaat:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on Muhammad and
On the family and true followers of Muhammad
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.

How Prophet said it:
Oh Allah, send grace and honour on me and
On the family and true followers of me
just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim
and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.

I am not saying that hadiths wrote that's how he prayed. But the sayings of salaat written in it does discriminate other prophets which in Islam is actually not allowed.

3:84 (O Prophet!) Say: 'We believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and to Issac and Jacob and his descendents, and the teachings which Allah gave to Moses and Jesus and to other Prophets. We make no distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. And whoever seeks a way other than Islam (the way of submission), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers.

 Throughout the history, human sacrifice was also a norm, but that doesn't make it right.

And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.6:116

I am never gonna stop anyone from following what he feels is right, but I would be wary of someone who takes lessons from tabloids instead of the protected true source.

Could you describe your full method of prayer or what you do and when you do it and stuff?
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hicham9

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 07:00:41 PM »
Could you describe your full method of prayer or what you do and when you do it and stuff?

When I pray to my Master, I reverently ask.
Whenever, wherever, ... and without gymnastics.

It's intuitive, it's rational, & it works [if you know what you ought to ask for].
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

Arman

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 07:25:03 PM »
Salamun Alaikum.

Exactly what do you mean salaat according to Hadith? Are there Hadith that explain the step by step process of salaat? I must have missed those. Could you give some reference?

Salat to me means "Respectful Obedience" to Allah. I have learnt a daily ritual to rehearse and express my salaat from my father... who in turn learnt it from his father... and I have been told that this sunnah (custom) goes back to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Based on the significant level of consistency of the frequency and format of the ritual accross the community I feel it is reasonably safe to assume that the custom indeed traces back to the prophet. The history tells us how bitterly the community became divided right after the death of the prophet. Given that I feel, the few things that we find to be common accross all traditional sects and groups of muslims (like the Qur'an, salat, siam etc.) can be safely accepted to have at least originated from the era of the prophet. This is not true for "Hadith" though. The community is bitterly divided in which hadith to accept as reliable and which one to reject.

Furthermore, the ritual that my community practices seems to be endorsed by Qur'an as well (although not elaborately explained or described step-by-step).

So, I have been practicing the ritual from my childhood. The more I learned about Qur'an and my Deen, the more I learned to love the ritual. I have firsthand experience on - once I started to seek the ritual seriously focusing on substance over form, how this ritual has helped transform my own self. Of course there are fanaticism on the form and frequency of salaat ritual and rivalry between sects about minute details. But, dude if someone becomes fanatic about their food, should we stop eating?

I need no new-age Quranist to tell me the ritual is wrong. I know it benefits me and hence I will continue to practice it. There are many things wrong with our community, setting time aside to express reverence for God 5 times a day is not one of them.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Man of Faith

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 08:49:48 PM »
The problem is that you do not know whether the practice is originally authentic because it may just be something that someone in the past dogmatically enforced by some authority claiming it was from their god and they were in a good standing spiritually even if they were not. Then without proper reflection one may be doing something like lemmings following each other off a cliff.

Be well
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Arman

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 08:56:45 PM »
The problem is that you do not know whether the practice is originally authentic because it may just be something that someone in the past dogmatically enforced by some authority claiming it was from their god and they were in a good standing spiritually even if they were not. Then without proper reflection one may be doing something like lemmings following each other off a cliff.

Be well

Salam.

What is "Originally Authentic"? Even if it is demonstrated that the man named Muhammad (pbuh) actually practiced and recommend it - it still remains - "something that someone in the past dogmatically enforced by some authority claiming it was from their god" as you call it.

While I do have sufficient reason to believe that the "Islamic" salaat ritual did in fact originate from the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - that is not the reason why I practice it. I practice it because I find it useful and meaningful. And once again, I do reject obsession and fanaticism about the form or frequency of the ritual, to the extent that form gets emphasized over substance.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

hicham9

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 09:13:08 PM »


وادا فـىـل لهمـ اتـبـعـوا ما انـزل الـلـه

فـالـوا بـل نـتـبـع ما الـڡـىـنـا علىه اابـاىنـا

اولـو كـاں اابـاوهمـ لا ىـعـفـلـوں شـىـا ولا ىـهـتـدوں



Sūreh
2:170
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

Man of Faith

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 09:28:52 PM »
Quote
What is "Originally Authentic"? Even if it is demonstrated that the man named Muhammad (pbuh) actually practiced and recommend it - it still remains - "something that someone in the past dogmatically enforced by some authority claiming it was from their god" as you call it.

You think it is demonstrated, but that is what I am working on indicating to you that the interpretation is very flawed.

The Islam you and many others follow is fabricated by past religionists, probably Persian clerics.

Quote
While I do have sufficient reason to believe that the "Islamic" salaat ritual did in fact originate from the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - that is not the reason why I practice it.

My efforts are at making you doubt that "the "Islamic" salaat ritual did in fact originate from the teaching of Prophet Muhammad", because the truth is not so. This is what I have spent the past year at doing. The important thing is to stir up the inconsistency in the usage of the word "salat". But people do not seem to care much about inconsistency. And many love interpretation acrobatics.

And they love praying birds.

Quote
What is "Originally Authentic"?

Originally authentic is what the Arabic in Quran was meant to mean by the Author.

Be well
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reel

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Re: Doing salat as per Sunni / Shia ways
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 11:21:25 PM »
Could you describe your full method of prayer or what you do and when you do it and stuff?
https://forallmontheists.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/picturebypictureguidetoprayer_ver3.pdf
Now I believe this:
When I pray to my Master, I reverently ask.
Whenever, wherever, ... and without gymnastics.

It's intuitive, it's rational, & it works [if you know what you ought to ask for].

@ Man of Faith
Brother, I was reading an intense debate of someone who followed Quran vs Sunnis. It was at a forum. I noticed that one of sunnis pinpointed that hadiths say Prophet Muhammad prayed only twice and then the person asked why then they are doing it 5 times. I am looking for this hadith, but can't find it. If you come across it please let me know. My research on the work of hadith is bringing things similar to clownish official 9/11 tales. But so far what I have gathered is that during Shafi's time, there was no official times for salaat. It also sounded like Muslims didn't pray everyday. It was a very personal decision for each and he was angry about it.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj