Author Topic: Quran Surah 16:51, words of allah or muhammad? 100% speech of muhammad  (Read 1408 times)

Nonmushrik

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Peace of The Lord Jesus Christ on you all

If there was only 1 verse in the whole Quran, which undoubtedly proves that the Quran is the speech of muhammad and not allah, this is it.

Surah 16:51 begins "wa qala allah" rendered "and allah said", the knowledgable contemporaries of muhammad would have been highly amused at this.

Since muhammad is going around saying this quran is not my words, but allahs, kind of strange for allah himself to say: and allah said.

Clearly muhammad got confused with speaking on behalf of allah and his own words.

Please open your mushaf, you'll notice a BIG full stop before this verse, which means that verse 51 is COMPLETELY independent from the verse before it, lest a muslim claims this is a continuation reading, needing to be read in a context.

Surah fatiha is another example, who's words are they? I guess allah likes to worship himself when he says "iyyaka na budu"

Not even a "qul" sadly would have helped here

Please read both surah 39:10 & surah 39:53, where muhammads confusion of speaking this way was further exposed

Surah 39:10 reads "qul ya ibadi" rendered "say o MY slaves"

Surah 39:53 reads "qul ya ibadiya" rendered "say o MY slaves/servants"

Conclusion, was muhammad receiving divine revelations? Nope, I'm sure he enjoyed having servants though, muslims are servants of muhammad, don't fool your selfs, those 2 verses are in both the qurans, no way to escape.

Peace.

hicham9

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In the eyes of this divinely-inspired memo, your "case" is as tenuous as a cobweb (29:41).
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

good logic

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Peace Nonmushrik.

Are these the words of Allah or Muhammad?
Like:
[Qoran 22:8] Among the people there is the one who argues about God without knowledge, and without guidance, and without an enlightening scripture.
 [Qoran 22:9] Arrogantly he strives to divert the people from the path of God. He thus incurs humiliation in this life..."

Actually they are both GODs words and Muhammed. Muhammed was only repeating GOD s words as a messenger.

Muhammed was trusted to deliver the exact letter, word ,sentence... And delivered Qoran , a job well done.

Jesus has done the same before him.i.e delivered GOD s message,summarised as follows:
"GOD is my Lord and your Lord, serve/worship Him Alone. No idols."

Peace upon both Jesus and Muhammed .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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hicham9

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SLM @good logic

Peace upon both Jesus and Muhammed .

... et al.?
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

Man of Faith

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I agree that the passage sounds lame and I am sorry you have been mislead by ancient interpreters just like those here who believe in that account of what Quran says. The passage including surrounding passages say something different than what people believe. In the highlighted passage of yours first of all the "la" لا following Qaal Allah does not mean "not" but "which/such are", i.e. "expressed "Be [As] As It" are such as..." Allah is a collective unity (Allahu ahad means it in Arabic) and it is always narrated in plural. The strangeness of Quran emerges due to its truthful account of the truth which can be a bit complicated and advanced and why prophets often spoke in allegories and parables including your and my friend Jesus.

Qul (root Qaaf-Waw-Lam) does not literally mean verbally say but express, to express yourself in any mode be it body language, speech or even telepathy. It is unlikely that GOD in all instances of Quran verbally transmits voice whenever 'qul' is used. People can be expressed in Allah due to the mechanics of this Unity in Allah. The قال reflects that the people in the context already are qul (expressed) with the alif after qaaf marking emphasis on the letter qaaf in the morphological composition.

To understand Quran one must first leave all bias behind and accept Quran have had amateurs working on it and people who have not exactly cared what it really says but have just wanted to fill in a religious doctrine into their "interpretation" such as the non-existent ritual called salat.

But you are right Allah is not solely GOD but the collective Unity into which understanding individuals adhere. Jesus belonged to the Unity and so do I. Jesus is not above me and we are one and the same in Allah and the Rabb (Platform) is our Master, a kind of singularity, and Jesus and I are not above Abraham but we are all equal in GOD.

Salaam
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Man of Faith

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Salaam,

I should also have said that Jesus also claimed: "the words are not my own but of the one who sent me". 39:53 is also not interpreted as intended by the author. An "ibadi" here does not imply slave/servant but as co-merger with the one expressing this phrase. It is the same message that Jesus conveys when he speaks to his disciples and not different. Because the prophet is symbiotic with the Rabb in Allah thus a passage like this implies an adherence to the Unity of Allah together. A prophet saying this is completely separated from his bodily self and absorbed in spirit of GOD which we all have to find underneath the cloud. If he (if Muhammad) refers to I he still does not really refer to himself.

In the Biblical Gospels,  do you think it is the Platform (Rabb) that healed the subjects of Jesus or the bodily and mortal Jesus as he appeared?

Salaam
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