Author Topic: Degree of language death of Classical Arabic problematizes Al-Quran translations  (Read 6432 times)

runninglikezebras

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Peace.
Can you shed more light on this please? I am doing linguistic anthropology but I cannot find anything about arabian tongue per se.
Good comment man, but I thought you didn't believe there is anything phenomenal about the number 19? Or are you using the 19 hypothesis to attempt to reveal my contradictions?

Peace.

Peace,

I'm not trying to reveal contradictions in what you say.  I reject the code 19 numerology Rashad/Yuksel have been promoting.  I do think however there is something remarkable about the 19 in that verse - as Quran states it as proof for the believers.  I tried to briefly touch upon what proof that is.  It has nothing to do with numerology but shows how Quran managed to accurately describe the potassium in human ashes - while the semantics to denote potassium in every human language has shifted over the centuries (Kalium -> Potassium).  Which is very relevant to the OP, it's a supreme example of how Quran transcends any shift in semantics over time.  God is all knowing.

To boil this down.  God knows at the time when Quran was revealed man had no idea about what potassium is.  There was not even a word available for it to describe it accurately.  At the time Quran was revealed God knew at some point in the future we would discover potassium as a different substance from sodium based on it's unique proton/electron count, being 19.

To me this is one of the biggest proofs inside Quran of its divine origin.  I must be doing a very poor job explaining this discovery, since it has been mostly ignored ever since I posted on my findings.  I can't understand how this linguistic miracle hasn't sparked a much larger debate. 

When I see Yuksel debating with an atheist and trying to use some failed numerologic argument, I really feel ashamed in his place.  He would be much wiser to use the real evidence of divine origin that Quran is offering, without requiring some unscientific numerologic superstition.

When you point out to any physicist Quran describes creation starting with pairs (deuterium) fully in lign with big bang model and modern understanding of physics, it will definitely draw their curiosity.  When you point out to someone with a physics degree that Quran remarkably states the proton count of the potassium in human ashes, they will be intrigued.

When you start using arguments showing you are so irrational to confuse numerology with mathematics, any rational, scientifically thinking mind is already ignoring you and no longer taking you seriously.

CyberAnthro

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Peace,

I'm not trying to reveal contradictions in what you say.  I reject the code 19 numerology Rashad/Yuksel have been promoting.  I do think however there is something remarkable about the 19 in that verse - as Quran states it as proof for the believers.  I tried to briefly touch upon what proof that is.  It has nothing to do with numerology but shows how Quran managed to accurately describe the potassium in human ashes - while the semantics to denote potassium in every human language has shifted over the centuries (Kalium -> Potassium).  Which is very relevant to the OP, it's a supreme example of how Quran transcends any shift in semantics over time.  God is all knowing.

To boil this down.  God knows at the time when Quran was revealed man had no idea about what potassium is.  There was not even a word available for it to describe it accurately.  At the time Quran was revealed God knew at some point in the future we would discover potassium as a different substance from sodium based on it's unique proton/electron count, being 19.

To me this is one of the biggest proofs inside Quran of its divine origin.  I must be doing a very poor job explaining this discovery, since it has been mostly ignored ever since I posted on my findings.  I can't understand how this linguistic miracle hasn't sparked a much larger debate. 

When I see Yuksel debating with an atheist and trying to use some failed numerologic argument, I really feel ashamed in his place.  He would be much wiser to use the real evidence of divine origin that Quran is offering, without requiring some unscientific numerologic superstition.

When you point out to any physicist Quran describes creation starting with pairs (deuterium) fully in lign with big bang model and modern understanding of physics, it will definitely draw their curiosity.  When you point out to someone with a physics degree that Quran remarkably states the proton count of the potassium in human ashes, they will be intrigued.

When you start using arguments showing you are so irrational to confuse numerology with mathematics, any rational, scientifically thinking mind is already ignoring you and no longer taking you seriously.

The potassium connection is interesting. Send us the link to the relevant articles. Before I comment on the ubiquitous yet infinitely refuted claims about the number nineteen in the tablet being numerology, are you aware of the linkage (not semantic) between the number of segments in the tablet to super-heavy elements?

I'm paraphrasing from the Yuksels book about nineteen here. Basically elements with an atomic number equal to 104 and higher are called super-heavy elements.  They're not found naturally on earth and can only be synthesized in special laboratories. They're also radioactive, so they tend to decay and turn into other atoms. You seem well-read so wont go into the details.

So Element 114 had long been predicted by theoretical calculations to be the highest stable element, and correct me if I'm mistaken, (I will attempt to find the source) experiments show that it is the highest producible element with a notably high half-life. If you research it you'll find articles saying scientists have managed to synthesize elements with a higher atomic number 114, deeper research will reveal the controversy and that they have not been verified/peer reviewed. I actually tweed the article a few months back: upi.com/1504651

Back to the Yuksel/khalifa thing, indeed much of what Khalifa published in his works are numerology, no question about it. Just gonna clarify here, that I don't agree 100% with anybody, it's not possible. True communication is only possible between equals, and the tragedy is that we're not all equals. So when it comes to the Yukselian tendencies to quote verses from the tablet to the famous skeptics etc, it worries me because he is a good logician to a certain extent, but when it comes to the semantics I feel as though he is quoting them without mentioning their low degree of objectivity in terms of their intended. When he corresponded with Carl Sagan though, I differ. Because the debate wasn't about the semantic dimensions, it was primarily the mathematical and statistical analysis.

I suggest you spend a little bit of time to correct any of your potential misconceptions specifically with regards to the nuomena (explained in OP) being numerology. It is very easy to conflate maths and numerology, especially in this case where you have millions of Rashadians who subscribe to this and are put in the same category as 'rational monotheists'. I'd like to point out that Edip left a little easter egg in his reformist translation, which could potentially render his own semantical approach to the tablet redundant/irrelevant, to a certain extent. Read on and I'll show ya.

I'm not focusing on semantics here, just mathematical. Did you know, that a German Jewish scholar, Judah ben Samuel HaChasid aka "Rabbi Judah the Pious," had discovered a mathematical system based on the number 19 in the original parts of the Old Testament in 11th century? That aside... Would it be logically valid to say that the word "nineteen" in the 74th segment of the tablet has remained semantically static since the era of the arabian tongue? Perhaps so. Do you not find it somewhat interesting that it was found in 1974? Remember, no semantics, no nusemantics here. Number of passages in the whole tablet is 19x334.

One segment of the tablet is missing the basmalah, 19 segments later, the symbols that represent the basmalah are found in that segment. It follows that the sum of the segment numbers from segment 9 (the segment with the missing symbols of basmalah) to segment 27 (the segment where the extra basmalah occurs), goes like this... where s=segment(s9+s10+s11+s12+s13... +s26+s27) equals 342. 342 is the total number of passages between the two basmalahs in the 27th segment of the tablet. 342 is too a multiple of 19. I say "is", it's not how it appears to me, it just "is". These are just a few examples of mathematical intricacies (not numerology) which is separate from semantics. I'll leave it there for now. But my point is, when you say you're not a code 19 believer, what do you mean? Do you mean that you don't see these intricacies as something worth digging deeper into? Or do you mean something else?

Ah yes, the esoteric easter egg in the reformist translation which shows Edip Yuksels DETERMINIST side. It's about 7:15. And the footnote reads... "The so-called "problem of evil" has created  a great challenge for theologians and philosophers  who accept a Benevolent and Omnipotent God. The  Christian medieval philosopher St. Augustine, in  Enchiridion, has an interesting argument regarding  the existence of Satan: "He used the very will of the  creature which was working in opposition to the  Creator's will as an instrument for carrying out his  will?"

WOW! You cannot deny that this implies that the Quranic deity is both Allah AND Iblis. Two sides of the same coin! Wow. This footnote opens the doors to 10000000000000 psychedelic ideas, that I dunno where to start. Perhaps this changes your view about Mr Yuksel, yes he's not right about everything, but there is enough to suggest that he is an interesting character who is on to something, whether you believe in it or not. It'd be cool to hear some thoughts on this.

Sorry for the long post, it was due.

Peace.

runninglikezebras

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Interesting post.  Not making it easier for me to respond to it.  I'll try to break it down and reply in-line.  Please don't interprete this as being a confrontational/aggressive stance I'm taking.  It just helps me to reply on point and keeping my focus.

The potassium connection is interesting. Send us the link to the relevant articles. Before I comment on the ubiquitous yet infinitely refuted claims about the number nineteen in the tablet being numerology, are you aware of the linkage (not semantic) between the number of segments in the tablet to super-heavy elements?

I'm sorry I can't send you relevant articles outside the posts I made about it on this forum.  As far as I'm aware, no one ever made this connection.  Here is the link  http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607107.0  to my post on it on freeminds, it's not a coherent article but a reflection of the discovery and my progression in understanding its significance.  I'm working on a full article on this connection on a website outside this forum if God wills.

I'm aware of the linkage between super-heavy elements and surah numbers in Quran.  I will repeat this more often throughout this post, my major objection is the surah index numbering is not part of the Quran.  It was never ordered by muhammed, nor by God.  The current surah codex we know was ordered by Uthman.  Uthman has no authority over Quran.  Those who think the current codification of Quran is authorized by God can only provide ahadit to backup their claims.  To me the surah index numbers are meaningless.  Human created.  Pointless to refer to them in any proof supporting a 'code 19'.

I'm paraphrasing from the Yuksels book about nineteen here. Basically elements with an atomic number equal to 104 and higher are called super-heavy elements.  They're not found naturally on earth and can only be synthesized in special laboratories. They're also radioactive, so they tend to decay and turn into other atoms. You seem well-read so wont go into the details.

Well one of this superheavy elements is deuterium.  You should look it up.  It will reveal the true meaning of what Quran means when it says 'we created everything in pairs'.

So Element 114 had long been predicted by theoretical calculations to be the highest stable element, and correct me if I'm mistaken, (I will attempt to find the source) experiments show that it is the highest producible element with a notably high half-life. If you research it you'll find articles saying scientists have managed to synthesize elements with a higher atomic number 114, deeper research will reveal the controversy and that they have not been verified/peer reviewed. I actually tweed the article a few months back: upi.com/1504651

I'm aware of these hypothetical/predicted elements and about successful experiments producing them.  Certainly, if anything is Gods signature it's to be  found in Mendeljevs table more than any numerological hypothesis.  I don't see any connection to 'code 19' though.  Though it's remarkable when Quran speaks about the substance covering a place where human fuel is being burned (hell) it pinpoints the electron count of the element spot on.   

Back to the Yuksel/khalifa thing, indeed much of what Khalifa published in his works are numerology, no question about it. Just gonna clarify here, that I don't agree 100% with anybody, it's not possible. True communication is only possible between equals, and the tragedy is that we're not all equals. So when it comes to the Yukselian tendencies to quote verses from the tablet to the famous skeptics etc, it worries me because he is a good logician to a certain extent, but when it comes to the semantics I feel as though he is quoting them without mentioning their low degree of objectivity in terms of their intended. When he corresponded with Carl Sagan though, I differ. Because the debate wasn't about the semantic dimensions, it was primarily the mathematical and statistical analysis.

Outside Yuksels lack of linguistic expertise, he is shooting in his own foot.  Using surah index numbers that are only supported by Uthman (not God) to support his belief in code 19 is to me intellectual hypocrisy.  No hadith means no hadith.  The surah index numbers he's using to back up his claims are only supported by hadith.  Again I stress surah index numbers were never an integral part of Quran but later additions to it.  Some part of Yuksel is still sunni, accepting Uthman was authorized by God to index Quran as we know it today.  Well, I'm not sunni.  I refute this idea.

I suggest you spend a little bit of time to correct any of your potential misconceptions specifically with regards to the nuomena (explained in OP) being numerology. It is very easy to conflate maths and numerology, especially in this case where you have millions of Rashadians who subscribe to this and are put in the same category as 'rational monotheists'. I'd like to point out that Edip left a little easter egg in his reformist translation, which could potentially render his own semantical approach to the tablet redundant/irrelevant, to a certain extent. Read on and I'll show ya.

I understand this.  Though I'm convinced after a lot of cross-checking, recalculating stuff and studying code 19 thesis, there is no maths at all in it.  None!  There is only numerology.  No formula.  No ruleset.  No method.  A lot of cherrypicking (even cherrypicking which Quran version to use), intellectual dishonesty and even outright wrong counting.

I'm not focusing on semantics here, just mathematical. Did you know, that a German Jewish scholar, Judah ben Samuel HaChasid aka "Rabbi Judah the Pious," had discovered a mathematical system based on the number 19 in the original parts of the Old Testament in 11th century? That aside... Would it be logically valid to say that the word "nineteen" in the 74th segment of the tablet has remained semantically static since the era of the arabian tongue? Perhaps so. Do you not find it somewhat interesting that it was found in 1974? Remember, no semantics, no nusemantics here. Number of passages in the whole tablet is 19x334.

I know about Rabbi Judah the Pious.  Again, numerology.  It's not maths.  There is no statistical significance at all.  I don't know what was discovered in 1974 outside someone's delusion and miscounting ending up in a giant misunderstanding of surah 74.  It means nothing to me.  The number of passages in Quran is also a multiple of other numbers.  It has no meaning for a statistical/mathematical point of view. Can't you see?

One segment of the tablet is missing the basmalah, 19 segments later, the symbols that represent the basmalah are found in that segment. It follows that the sum of the segment numbers from segment 9 (the segment with the missing symbols of basmalah) to segment 27 (the segment where the extra basmalah occurs), goes like this... where s=segment(s9+s10+s11+s12+s13... +s26+s27) equals 342. 342 is the total number of passages between the two basmalahs in the 27th segment of the tablet. 342 is too a multiple of 19. I say "is", it's not how it appears to me, it just "is". These are just a few examples of mathematical intricacies (not numerology) which is separate from semantics. I'll leave it there for now. But my point is, when you say you're not a code 19 believer, what do you mean? Do you mean that you don't see these intricacies as something worth digging deeper into? Or do you mean something else?

I know I'm repeating myself.  But you are giving divine authority to Uthman when he ordered to codify the Quran in this format.  There is no verse in Quran authorizing Uthman to do this.  It's not quranic evidence.  It's uthmanic evidence.

Ah yes, the esoteric easter egg in the reformist translation which shows Edip Yuksels DETERMINIST side. It's about 7:15. And the footnote reads... "The so-called "problem of evil" has created  a great challenge for theologians and philosophers  who accept a Benevolent and Omnipotent God. The  Christian medieval philosopher St. Augustine, in  Enchiridion, has an interesting argument regarding  the existence of Satan: "He used the very will of the  creature which was working in opposition to the  Creator's will as an instrument for carrying out his  will?"

WOW! You cannot deny that this implies that the Quranic deity is both Allah AND Iblis. Two sides of the same coin! Wow. This footnote opens the doors to 10000000000000 psychedelic ideas, that I dunno where to start. Perhaps this changes your view about Mr Yuksel, yes he's not right about everything, but there is enough to suggest that he is an interesting character who is on to something, whether you believe in it or not. It'd be cool to hear some thoughts on this.

Now this is one of the ideas I do share with Yuksel.  I pretty much interprete Iblis in a similar way.  I never needed code 19 to do so though.

Peace

ps: surah 74, even from a gematrical point of view is no multiple of 19 in any sense.  This should tell you something.