Author Topic: Degree of language death of Classical Arabic problematizes Al-Quran translations  (Read 4750 times)

CyberAnthro

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Classical Arabic has been dead for centuries. People know its general form but not the true meaning. Many many many words of Al-quran remains ambiguous with countless interpretations of its meaning and form.

I do not deny the death of the universal history of numbers. So I'm inferring here that I still think that there is something spectacular about the code 19 phenomena.

However I feel as though the code 19 phenomena as propagated by Yuksel has raised MORE important questions. I see a level of inconsistency with ALL translations of the Quran, with regards what happened in 1974. I think, if there has been a diabolic conspiracy to stop the quran from being a pocket book, I find it plausible to infer the possibility of a language death of Fusha/classical arabic which has not been addressed by islamic reformists.

What does one do if can cannot rely on a language, in which there is a lot of potential evidences to indicate that alot of the semantics may have been completely lost or changed over the past 1400 years. If one is unable to access the original semantics of the quran, does one just continue to believe in the "generally accepted" translations among reformists? Do we continue to believe it because we believe that it is definitely authentically semantic, or do we believe in it so we can utilize the power of the placebo affect in order to manifest change in ones life?

Any ideas? I've been struggling with this for a while. I have this feeling that I cannot put my faith in the generally accepted reality of classical arabic, even you study the verses of the quran comparatively, logically speaking, this doesn't guarantee semantic authenticity, at least not for the whole text. What does one do in a situation like this?

Peace.

Bahman

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Classical Arabic has been dead for centuries. People know its general form but not the true meaning. Many many many words of Al-quran remains ambiguous with countless interpretations of its meaning and form.
Peace and welcome
I agree with your claim for changing meaning of words or disappearing real meaning of some expressions by passing time but  28 Arabic Alphabets (ABJAD regardless their shape) are used in Quran text  or different ones in original. ?

Peace.




hicham9

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The Qurān was not "revealed" in (what we call) "Classical Arabic" (but in: an* Arabian tongue).

CA was formulated by (post-qurānic) Ajamites (e.g., Sēbōē/Sibawayh); [cf., 16:103]!

~ Both the script and vocabulary (of the Qurān) bespeak an Aramean origin [ergo. Mesopotamia, not Hijaz]


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I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

hicham9

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Mesopotamia, the land lying between the two rivers (Euphrates & Tigris)
= QA: mṣr (مصر)

M (when initial) means: water/river/or?
(when middle) means: bind/confine/or?
R (when final) means: land/territory/or?

Imo ~ this is where most, if not all qurānic events took place [...]



Just my two Dinars

SLM
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

Jafar

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I think, if there has been a diabolic conspiracy to stop the quran from being a pocket book, I find it plausible to infer the possibility of a language death of Fusha/classical arabic which has not been addressed by islamic reformists.

Back to the basic law within this universe.

Everything yes everything which is bound / contained within this universe  has a beginning and an end.. none is eternal..
That includes "Language" and "Book"..

And there's nothing to do.. it just the natural way of how things are in this universe..

Quote
What does one do if can cannot rely on a language, in which there is a lot of potential evidences to indicate that alot of the semantics may have been completely lost or changed over the past 1400 years. If one is unable to access the original semantics of the quran, does one just continue to believe in the "generally accepted" translations among reformists? Do we continue to believe it because we believe that it is definitely authentically semantic, or do we believe in it so we can utilize the power of the placebo affect in order to manifest change in ones life?

Any ideas? I've been struggling with this for a while. I have this feeling that I cannot put my faith in the generally accepted reality of classical arabic, even you study the verses of the quran comparatively, logically speaking, this doesn't guarantee semantic authenticity, at least not for the whole text. What does one do in a situation like this?


These are few example of "Words" which semantically has changed a lot..
"islam" and "muslim" which now has a semantic meanings of "An identifier / name of a specific religion / sect".
"dien" which now has a meanings of religion / sect

We cannot rely on language or book, as both has their own finite lifetime..
But we can always rely on God as He alone has an infinite lifetime..

So yes, you cannot put your faith in "classical arabic" (or any other language) or Quran (or any other book)..

CyberAnthro

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Back to the basic law within this universe.

Everything yes everything which is bound / contained within this universe  has a beginning and an end.. none is eternal..
That includes "Language" and "Book"..

And there's nothing to do.. it just the natural way of how things are in this universe..

These are few example of "Words" which semantically has changed a lot..
"islam" and "muslim" which now has a semantic meanings of "An identifier / name of a specific religion / sect".
"dien" which now has a meanings of religion / sect

We cannot rely on language or book, as both has their own finite lifetime..
But we can always rely on God as He alone has an infinite lifetime..

So yes, you cannot put your faith in "classical arabic" (or any other language) or Quran (or any other book)..


I'm sure there are people who would debate that with you. As far as the inimitable gematrical intricacies in the tablet, I see something there, and not just chaotic coincidence. But I don't know what exactly it IS that I see, other than something that cannot be outrightly dismissed as coincidence. Remember, I'm referring primarily to the numbers, not "nusemantics". Because the semantics isn't clear.

If one cannot rely on anything actually being semantically objective and authentic within al-quran then one simply cannot deny the claim morality is simply a social construct, and that there is simply NO such thing objective morality/good/evil, therefore it's ok to embrace hardcore solipsism and all the open doors that come with it.

As a result of this, even if I argue that we have evolved to be social and friendly animals so we ought to be amicable, a solipsist can simply say that we have also evolved aggression and tribalism from which contrary oughts can be derived. The solipsist could easily further argue that even if virtually every person has the same amicable nature, one could still not derive a value from this supposed fact, an ought from an is.

uq

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Peace CyberAnthro!

You raise a good topic.

I will address the topic in three points.

1. All languages mutate over time, including Arabic. This is simply a semantic given. However, the more important question is "Can we trace the original meaning of a statement in a language which is no longer used?" For some dead languages, the answer is "No," because there are no extant texts authored in that language from which we could derive an understanding of the manner in which words were used. In other dead languages, the answer is "Yes," because there are sufficiently enough texts in existence to allow us to garner an understanding of how its speakers used their words. Fortunately, Arabic was preserved in writing from the 9th century onwards. And it wasn't simply preserved by several books. It was preserved by a massive body of texts dating back to that time. The only concerning factor is that there are very few preserved texts (not including the Quran) that precede the 8th century. So we do have a gap in our evidence lasting for a couple of centuries. However, during this time, the Quran would have served as a common denominator amongst all the Arabian tribes after having accepted Islam. This, in my mind, would have certainly contributed to the preservation of spoken Arabic from the 6th century to the 9th century. This is especially true amongst the bedouin Arabs because their preservation of history and lineage was almost entirely oral, and they placed a great emphasis on oratory. These two factors do not negate the liability of mutation of Arabic throughout the 6th and 7th centuries, but they do go some way in abating it.

2. I like to distinguish between the Arabic used in the Quran, and the Arabic used by people after the Islamic expansion in the 8th and 9th centuries. I prefer to call the Arabic used in the Quran "Peninsular Arabic." Whereas, I prefer to call the Arabic used by people post-750 AD "Classical Arabic." I use the term "Peninsular" because Arabic was confined to the Arabian peninsula at the time of the Quran's revelation, whereas "Classical Arabic" was used throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and even parts of South Asia. I make the distinction between "Peninsular" and "Classical" because there were many new terms introduced to the language after circa 750 AD. This was a response to encountering foreign cultures and it was an attempt at Arabising foreign concepts; with particular regard to non-Arab Christian works and the works of Classical Greek philosophers. I have little doubt that new words were added to the language, but this in no way implies that the meanings of original words were forgotten, if anything, it strengthened them. There are many examples of morphology I could give where this is the case, but I feel that my post will be too long for the casual reader.

3. The available evidence relating to the use of Peninsular Arabic is sufficient to the extent that we may accurately understand the intended meaning of the One who authored the Quran. I do not encourage people with an elementary understanding of Arabic to read the Quran in its original text. Otherwise, in my view, an elementary student will do more harm to their understanding than they will aid it. You need to know your stuff if you want to read the Quran in its original form. I always encourage people to read several different translations of the Quran in their mother tongue, whether it be Urdu, Punjabi, Mandarin, French, Dutch etc. Using several different translations will allow the reader to even out any biases that the translator consciously or unconsciously imprints in the text.
uq

runninglikezebras

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Classical Arabic has been dead for centuries. People know its general form but not the true meaning. Many many many words of Al-quran remains ambiguous with countless interpretations of its meaning and form.

I do not deny the death of the universal history of numbers. So I'm inferring here that I still think that there is something spectacular about the code 19 phenomena.

However I feel as though the code 19 phenomena as propagated by Yuksel has raised MORE important questions.

The only thing the code 19 phenomenon shows, is that some people lack the logic/rational mind to realize "19" covering hell indicates a physical substance.  19 is universally the atomic index number of potassium.  Eg if aliens would exist, speaking an entirely different language - the atomic index number of potassium would still be 19.  The biggest remainder in human ashes.  Furthermore the fact the universal index number of the substance is being used, instead of the common al-qalyah (which has ambiguous meaning throughout the evolution of all languages - historically also referring to sodium) - shows us God is well aware of this dynamic aspect of language and possible future shifts in semantics. 

Lack of common sense is a way bigger obstacle than the differences between modern and quranic arabic.

Peace

CyberAnthro

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Peace and welcome
I agree with your claim for changing meaning of words or disappearing real meaning of some expressions by passing time but  28 Arabic Alphabets (ABJAD regardless their shape) are used in Quran text  or different ones in original. ?

Peace.

Yeah, as I was saying, there is enough evidence in the universal history of numbers to suggest that the numerical values have arabic alphabet are arithmetically static.
Back to the basic law within this universe.

Everything yes everything which is bound / contained within this universe  has a beginning and an end.. none is eternal..
That includes "Language" and "Book"..

And there's nothing to do.. it just the natural way of how things are in this universe..

These are few example of "Words" which semantically has changed a lot..
"islam" and "muslim" which now has a semantic meanings of "An identifier / name of a specific religion / sect".
"dien" which now has a meanings of religion / sect

We cannot rely on language or book, as both has their own finite lifetime..
But we can always rely on God as He alone has an infinite lifetime..

So yes, you cannot put your faith in "classical arabic" (or any other language) or Quran (or any other book)..


But then that means you're choosing to have a subjective faith in an invisible deity and from your words I can see that you are anthropomorphizing the infinite deity. << I sincerely despise this, like I can't be bothered to put into creative expressionism how much I despise this anthropomorphizing of God. It's so dangerous and so silly. Usually I take what's valuable and throw out the rest, but it seems that you cannot possess anything that is of use to me with regards to my question, because of this mere act of anthropomorphizing. Sorry i dont mean to be rude I'm just stating how I see it personally.

Peace.
The Qurān was not "revealed" in (what we call) "Classical Arabic" (but in: an* Arabian tongue).

CA was formulated by (post-qurānic) Ajamites (e.g., Sēbōē/Sibawayh); [cf., 16:103]!

~ Both the script and vocabulary (of the Qurān) bespeak an Aramean origin [ergo. Mesopotamia, not Hijaz]


* indefinite

Can you shed more light on this please? I am doing linguistic anthropology but I cannot find anything about arabian tongue per se.
The only thing the code 19 phenomenon shows, is that some people lack the logic/rational mind to realize "19" covering hell indicates a physical substance.  19 is universally the atomic index number of potassium.  Eg if aliens would exist, speaking an entirely different language - the atomic index number of potassium would still be 19.  The biggest remainder in human ashes.  Furthermore the fact the universal index number of the substance is being used, instead of the common al-qalyah (which has ambiguous meaning throughout the evolution of all languages - historically also referring to sodium) - shows us God is well aware of this dynamic aspect of language and possible future shifts in semantics. 

Lack of common sense is a way bigger obstacle than the differences between modern and quranic arabic.

Peace

Good comment man, but I thought you didn't believe there is anything phenomenal about the number 19? Or are you using the 19 hypothesis to attempt to reveal my contradictions?

Peace.

hicham9

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Peace @CyberAnthro; all

The Qurān was not "revealed" in (what we call) "Classical Arabic" (but in: an*indefinite Arabian tongue).

CA was formulated by (post-qurānic) Ajamites (e.g., Sēbōē/Sibawayh); [cf., 16:103]!

~ Both the script and vocabulary (of the Qurān) bespeak an Aramean origin [ergo. Mesopotamia, not Hijaz]

...

Mesopotamia, the land lying between the two rivers (Euphrates & Tigris)
= QA: mṣr (مصر)

M (when initial) means: water/river/or?
(when middle) means: bind/confine/or?
R (when final) means: land/territory/or?

Imo ~ this is where most, if not all qurānic events took place [...]

Can you shed more light on this please? I am doing linguistic anthropology but I cannot find anything about arabian tongue per se.

G-D willing, I intend to start a new thread regarding the [pre-qurānic] Arabian tongue of the Qurān [conceivably in the near future ...]

~ I'll make sure to post the link here once done (so you can see it).

SLM
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.