The Quranic KABA is an ankle/joint, not a pagan temple

[runninglikezebras]

Peace running like zebras

I'll study the link you sent me, thanks.

I'm not prepared to accept a new meaning of a word in which in 5:6 kabayni is ankle and 5:95/97 as being either trouble/pain and or cubic temple when from the same root, without any real morphing of the word.

Also from my understanding your agreeing that passages 5:94-97 is consistent in talking about hunting?

What trouble/pain is given to the wronged hunter as a recompense? Are you agreeing that cattle is the recompense but kabati in 5:95 is not the animals joints but the hunters trouble pain? You know when horse breeders rub and inspect the thighs/calfs/ankles of the horse? They make horse shoes to for the horses feet.

I'm only trying to understand clear consistent Quranic arabic.

What I find in etymological resources is this:

ka?b
: cube [Amh kebbebe (enclose)] Per ka?b borrowed from Ara
ka?b
: heel [?]
kaba
: trouble, pain [Heb keev, Aram k?b] Per kabe borrowed from Ara
ka?ba : cube [ka?b] Hin kaba, Ind kaabah, Per ka?be borrowed from Ara

Relating this back to Quran:

5:6 l-kaʿbayni - genitive masculine dual noun

The noun being dual leaves no doubt what it is speaking about, next to its context it must mean ankles.

5:95

l-kaʿbati - genitive feminine proper noun

This is not a dual noun making it next to the context unlikely to be speaking about ankles.  It's definitely describing a hunting/butchering situation, the normal recompense for such a thing can only be measured by the grief done.  The size of the animal is not relevant, besides ankles have never been a measure for anything as far as I know (in contrary to eg elbows).  Most likely this meaning is related to the hebrew aqeb whereas kaba is related to hebrew kaab.  Kaab is mostly translated as pain, be it physical or non-physical.  Aqeb means heel, ankle.  When one violates the rules given to us for Ihram, we damage inflict pain/sorrow to ourselves.

My understanding summarized: if you kill an animal during Ihram - the recompense is an animal or expiation by feeding the needy or fasting.  If the physical recompense is chosen over expiation, the offered recompense is judged wether it's sufficient to recompense the grief/pain/trouble being caused.

What is interesting here is Quran encourages the expiation over material recompense by making the material recompense more difficult.  It has to pass the approval of judges, who judge if the recompense stands up to the grief it caused.  There is no such process when expiation is chosen.  This shows God is fully aware a material recompense does not guarantee any remorse of realization of the damage one has done oneself.

5:97 to me also speaks about the 'sorrows' rather then some cubic stone.  Although I must admit I do not fully understand yet what is referred to with l-bayta.  I have a feeling it may refer to the sorrows and the virtues (blessings and burdens) but so far I have no evidence for this.

I understand these verses only speak about what God expects if you commit the mistake of killing an animal during Ihram.  5:97 only defines this recompense to be a just one just like the other burdens one bears during Ihram are just.  It's nowhere near an expectation to go butcher an animal.  In contrary.

ps: I'm not urging you to accept any interpretation including mine.  I'm sharing what I know and found out.  I only hope it helps you understanding.

Peace

[amin]

Kaaba, here could mean the authority/leader.

[Wakas]

One of the good things about Quran, from my experience, is that if you try to insert an incorrect meaning into it, it usually gets exposed. Application of cross-reference, logic etc will help with this.

Of course, some dont bother with that.

[Arman]

In Surah 5:6 this word KABAYNI appears, this is the ayah the mushriks call WUDHU, a word non existent in Al Quran.

In Surah 5:95 it says "hadyan balighal KABATI" correctly rendered "guided (by the) MATURITY/REACHING (the animals) ankle. Kafirs translate this as offerings reaching the cube, that's exactly it, today's kafirs still associate offerings to the cube with THE GOD, but of course they claim to being Muslim.

If you read Surahs 5:94-97 it's clearly discussing hunting/wildlife conservations, the laws and method of taking care of animals.

5:95 discusses if anyone kills animals then it's a like for a like, 2 witnesses judge the animals maturity and give an equivalent in recompence.

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kEb#(5:6:17)

Salam.

May I suggest you be more careful in using the word "kafir".

I believe Qur'an does not allow us the authority to question anyones faith as long as they offer us peace (4:94).

As far your proposition is concerned, I fully agree that the verse is about wildlife conservations, but I am not convinced about your proposed meaning of ka'ba yet - because "MATURITY/REACHING (the animals) ankle" does not make complete sense to me.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Arman]

Salamun Alaikum.

After a careful review of the potential range of meanings of the word "ka'ba", I am convinced that the English word "sanctuary" would be the closest appropriate translation. In other words, Ka'ba could be any enclosed area set out as a sanctuary.

Full Definition of SANCTUARY
1:  a consecrated place: as a :  the ancient Hebrew temple at Jerusalem or its holy of holies b (1) : the most sacred part of a religious building (as the part of a Christian church in which the altar is placed) (2) :  the room in which general worship services are held (3) :  a place (as a church or a temple) for worship
2a (1) :  a place of refuge and protection (2) :  a refuge for wildlife where predators are controlled and hunting is illegal b :  the immunity from law attached to a sanctuary

(Ref: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sanctuary)

If one kills an animal within a prohibited sanctualy, the expiation should reach the same sanctuary (either to be released in the sanctuary or to be used as a feed for the wild animals/inhabitants of the sanctuary). This makes the most sense - both from a religious and "wildlife conservation" point of view.

So my translation for the verses  now stand as follows:

5:95    O! Those who have put faith ? do not kill the (hunting) game while you are under prohibition. And whoever intentionally kills it among you, then repayment is similar to what he killed from the herd ? judged by a couple of impartial individuals among you ? an offering reaching the Sanctuary ; or an expiation feeding needy (ones); or compensation of that (in) siam - that he may taste the consequences of his deed. Allah pardons whatever has occurred ? but whoever goes back then Allah will take retribution from him - and Allah is Mighty Authority of Retribution.

5:96   Legitimized for you is the (hunted) game of the sea and its food as provision for you and for the carriages, while prohibited for you are the (hunted) games of the land as long as you are under prohibition. And be conscious of Allah ? the One to whom you will be gathered.

5:97    Allah has assigned the Sanctuary, as the sacred house, (as) an establishment for mankind ? and the sacred months and the offerings and the (decorative) circlets. That is so that you may know ? that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and that Allah is Knowledgeable of everything.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Wakas]

peace arman, all,

You said:

Ka'ba could be any enclosed area set out as a sanctuary.

And:

5:97    Allah has assigned the Sanctuary, as the sacred house

In other words:
kaaba = any enclosed area / sanctuary = sacred house


You may be interested to know that I make the case in the following article that kaaba refers to an area also:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

[Arman]

peace arman, all,

You said:
And:
In other words:
kaaba = any enclosed area / sanctuary = sacred house


You may be interested to know that I make the case in the following article that kaaba refers to an area also:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Thanks brother Wakas.

It is indeed comforting to know that others have come to the same conclusion using their own independent analysis.

BTW, would you ever consider producing a more simplified summary of your understanding of the concepts of hajj and masjid al haram? Perhaps in the format of a translation (of relevant verses) with appropriate footnotes? Everytime I try to read through your analysis I seem to get lost in what it could be and what it could not be, the final conclusion continues to remain obscure.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[runninglikezebras]

So you guys are offering animals in a sanctuary and call this Islam?

Again, I point you to the ambiguous root words that exist for this letter combination, meaning "trouble, pain" which is a normal measure for any recompense.  Offering animals in a sanctuary is not a translation I'm willing to accept.

Peace

[Arman]

So you guys are offering animals in a sanctuary and call this Islam?

Again, I point you to the ambiguous root words that exist for this letter combination, meaning "trouble, pain" which is a normal measure for any recompense.  Offering animals in a sanctuary is not a translation I'm willing to accept.

Peace

Salam runninglikezebras:

The verses lead me to the understanding that I cannot hunt prohibited wild animals in a sanctuary (i.e. hunting restricted area) - which can be any animal sanctuary established at any place by the appropriate authority to preserve worldlife. If someone intentionally hunts in that area he would be liable to purchase equivalent animals and replace in the sanctuary.
The equivalance will be decided by 2 imparial individuals.

Expiation by feeding the needy or by siam are other alternative options.

On the other hand imagine someone kills a tiger in a sanctuary / hunting restricted area. Buying and replacing the tiger would not be feasible. It may be an option that instead of a tiger the hunter is made to donate equivalent number from domestic animals (e.g. say 7 cows) which will be used to feed tigers in the sanctuary. This is another possible approach to address the situation.

This is what I am getting from the verses. You are welcome to excercise your judgement.

Regards,
Arman

[Wakas]

Everytime I try to read through your analysis I seem to get lost in what it could be and what it could not be, the final conclusion continues to remain obscure.

May i ask if you completed reading the article? if so how many times did you read it?