Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited

[clashncruz]

Assalamu Alaykum all,

I just thought I would post this video clip for anyone who hasn't seen it. Here are two sheikhs from the Gulf debating this exact question, and the answer may surprise you.


Can Atheists Go To Heaven In Islam? A Surprising Answer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8

Salaam

Clash.

[Student of Allah]

افلمـ يسيروا فى الارض

فتكون لهم قلوب يعقلون بها او اذان يسمعون بها

فانها لا تعمى الابصـر ولكن تعمى القلوب التى فى الصدور

22:46

Bias bred from Hatred

= Blindness

Shalom Aleikhem,


Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!


May peace be with you

----------------------------- Student of Allah

[hicham9]

Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong
when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!

Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away !
Like e.g., here :/

Why bother then ?!?

Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? plz don't lie against me !

[Student of Allah]

Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away ! E.g., here.

Why bother then ?!?

Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? Don't lie :/

I did not run away. You have to realize that I don't hang around this forum as much as I used to. Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true? Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything.  I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape. Not to mention that all the interlocking mathematical models we have of planets (including earth) will have to be discarded despite them having predictive power. (best of luck trying to convince people to throw away all that working model too )

I ask you questions and you answer with things like :

"and why would that be?"

You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work? The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?



It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true. None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal. It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize. 

P.S. Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.



------------ Student of Allah

[Student of Allah]

I apologize to the creator of the tread for the off topic rant. Will try not to do that agian.




-------- Student of Allah

[hicham9]

I did not run away.

If you say so !

Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true?

You mean the bulk of misinfo, acquired through indoctrination.

Aye, to accept that Earth is in fact planate (instead of rotund) one has to stop erroneously appealing to the majority and throw away that which they forced down his/her throat during childhood/gullibility, to realize - through independent, objective enquiry - that his/her inherited "spinning/whirling ball" bubble has no basis in Reality.

Real eyes, realize, real lies.

Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything.

Your "theories" can't prove Earth's alleged motions !

Why contradict the truth and believe that Earth moves, then ?!

I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape.

1) There's no such a thing as "gravity" on Earth ~ Try: Density.

2) What makes you think Earth is a so-called "planet" ?! <- this is an assumption ! A preconceived notion.

I ask you questions and you answer with things like :

"and why would that be?"

Contextomy !

You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work?

Disregard everything we know ?! ? Nop !

Only Falsehood (aka. PSEUDO-science)

The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?

Equations mean nothing if they can't represent Reality.

It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true.

You need to differentiate between theories and facts.

None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal.

I presented you with a clear and stable RAW footage (with a rectilinear lens) showing the FLAT earth from a high-altitude of 120,000 ft, along with a scientific paper by the leading Optical Society of America, testifying that the required elevation for discerning earth's alleged curvature is somewhat between 14,000 and 35,000 ft high !

You couldn't even address this one single argument :/

Whatever happened to your "equations" !

It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.

Meaningless words.

Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.

I didn't say that ALL people have useless eyes !
Just those with a blind mind.

Salute.

[Sadia Afrin]

This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness (i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic :/)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. Salam and thanx again.

[Arman]

This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness (i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic :/)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. Salam and thanx again.

Thanks for the compliments sister, but my post was never meant to encourage anyone to non-belief. My only contention was: as believers in Qur?an how should we view or deal with the people who do not believe in God or a personified God. And my conclusion was that ? as long as they come to us in peace ? we are not authorized to question their faith (iman) because faith (Iman) is supposed to operate at a moral level, not an intellectual level. But unlike you I continue to be a vocal believer. I am trying my best to be a conscious person (Muttaqui) as Qur?an recommends and would always recommend that as the even path. Perhaps I conceptualize and explain the commonness that binds everything in existance in a mutual obligation of righteousness (whom I happen to call God) in a way different from a Buddhist / Hindu / Atheist, but - that common Foundation of everything in existence (God) is my Master and your Master, so let?s be slave to Him by upholding the intellect and conscience that He has given us ? that is the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

[HP_TECH]

This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness (i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic :/)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. Salam and thanx again.

I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting?

[Arman]

I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting?

I do and I did clarify where I deemed necessary.

I have not an atom of regret if my " rhetoric " prompted anyone to question one's beliefs. Belief (janna) turns into conviction (yakeen) only through questioning and contemplating - and to get there one needs the freedom of mental space to do the questioning in the first place. Bullying one's mind with sacred unquestionable beliefs pushed down the throat takes away that freedom and potentially leads to fanaticism.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman