Do you take the Qur'an literally?

[Samira1234]

Not all people fill in relationships like that.  You are entitled to your own understanding of what a relationship should be for you, but one shouldn't fill that in for others.  If some couples don't mind multiple partners, then who are we to say they are not entitled to do so?

If people are fine and happy living polyamorous lifestyles, I am happy for them as well. Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle:

Polygamy being a two-way street. In other words, if one partner goes for it (with full permission and knowledge of the other spouse), then his partner has full right to do the same. Otherwise, polygamy being exclusive for only one gender that too which is religiously stated so only has the potential to bring distress and harm.

I am speaking from experience of talking to numerous women personally and reading their stories as well to come to the above conclusion.

Peace.

[runninglikezebras]

If people are fine and happy living polyamorous lifestyles, I am happy for them as well. Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle:

Polygamy being a two-way street. In other words, if one partner goes for it (with full permission and knowledge of the other spouse), then his partner has full right to do the same. Otherwise, polygamy being exclusive for only one gender that too which is religiously stated so only has the potential to bring distress and harm.

I am speaking from experience of talking to numerous women personally and reading their stories as well to come to the above conclusion.

Peace.

Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle:

=> This simply isn't true.  I agree for most of us what you say would be the only valid terms for it, but you are ignoring there are people out there who are an exception to your rule and perfectly happy with it.

[Mazhar]

For a married man, this is an on-the-face disrespectful attitude and a whack to his wife's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from her spouse, that too by a God who put these needs in her in the first place. If this is what the God of the Quran would have commanded, I would have ran away with my husband from this religion to safeguard myself, my children, and even my husband from getting torn apart due to having third-party intruders, with equal status, into our marriage and family.

You are not the only woman that Allah the Exalted has created; and you are not the only woman who is the audience of Qur'aan. Moreover, this stance is when you are by His Grace enjoying the company of husband, and you are not the subject of this discourse. The discourse we are discussing is not about you, it is about those women who have already lost their husband and are lonely with or without responsibility of father-orphan sons and daugters.

[Samira1234]

@Mazhar

You are not the only woman that Allah the Exalted has created; and you are not the only woman who is the audience of Qur'aan.

Yeah I am not married currently, but I can easily imagine the scenario, have married people as my friends, and have talked to married women and men regarding such topics. So many a time when I give opinions regarding such topics, it's not just on behalf of me, but for other women and men as well.

Regarding single women, seeing this kind of disrespect towards a woman's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from her mate, while giving absolute importance to a man's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from his mate, puts off single women from marriage as well, and even creates hatred and distrust of men in general. I am not kidding. I have seen numerous single women having such sub-conscious reactions to such type of statements.

Moreover, this stance is when you are by His Grace enjoying the company of husband, and you are not the subject of this discourse.

And by His Grace we women in the majority want to remain enjoying the exclusive companionship of our husbands. Otherwise marriage sounds more like scraps given to women telling them to be thankful that they can at least part-time "enjoy" having companionship, providence and care from husband.

The discourse we are discussing is not about you, it is about those women who have already lost their husband and are lonely with or without responsibility of father-orphan sons and daugters.

They can find their own husbands. Other people don't need to suffer because they lost their husbands or are lonely. Let me tell you one thing: the enjoyment, contentment and happiness of the second wives is usually indirectly proportional to that of the first wives. Which means the second wife gets all this at the cost or expense of the first wife.

Words told to first wives regarding patience, they will be rewarded for their sacrifice, helping other women, etc, in order to comfort them are usually bull statements. The first wives may get a false comfort initially, which often wears off, and end up with distrust, distress, pain and disappearance of love in the first marriage, the love and sense of security being often times replaced by fear, hatred and need for competition with the other wife.

Also regarding loneliness, I have seen numerous single men also similarly lonely and have lost their wives in some way, and are deeply suffering as a result. They may have children who miss the nurture of a caring woman, even if for part-time, as a mother. Also for men they have more issues regarding their testosterone levels, which means they have high sex drives too, and can end up getting aggressive and cold due to lack of having a woman in their lives. So I would say polyandry would be just as viable a solution for these men just as polygyny would be for women in similar conditions. Hence either two-way polygamy should be legitimized, or no polygamy at all. My words also reflect much more practicality as well, since I came to these conclusions after talking to people and reading on some others in similar real-life situations, both men and women.

Peace.

[Hizbullah]

Salamun alaika, thanks for pointing out.

Firstly an order is given. Then a modification is introduced for those who cannot comply with the command giving them alternate options. A widow can be in two states; she has father-orphan progenies along with her; and she can be all by herself without progeny. Later will cause little financial obligations as compared to first one.
In the last sentence this point is mentioned. Just to let the reader know I have put it in parentheses, it can be removed; even if it is put without parentheses it will not be against the Arabic text since the subjunctive mood verb and it being rectifying clause for some men.

What would you advise?

Salam Bro Mazar

You are one of those knowledgeable person in FM and agreed with most of what you put up. Since you asked for my advise, than it will be my honor.

04:03 - And if you fear that you will not distribute justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [orphan] women, two or three or four. So if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses [the meaning as mentioned in your link] . That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].


In order to comprehand the verse above, we need to cross examine 04:127, which states


And they request from you, [O Muhammad], a [legal] ruling concerning women. Say, "Allah gives you a ruling about them and what has been recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan women to whom you do not give what is decreed for them and you desire to marry them and the ones who are weak among children and that you stand for orphans with justice." And whatever you do of good - than indeed, Allah is ever Knowing of it.


As guardian of the orphans, one of the criteria is we must be able to distribute justly of what is with them. If we fear of not being just than it is practical to marry the women among the orphans. If we have intention to marry them but due to financial difficulties, than marry just one of them OR she under your protection and responsibility-believing woman in the fold of non-believer who migrated to believing society: She whom Allah the Exalted in that state had brought-made her Ward under your authority and obligation. This is in conjunction with 04:25

This is my understanding of the verse 04:03.

Peace

[Recluse]

Where did I say there is stupidity in the Qur'an? I know there are verses in the Qur'an that are not applied today by most Muslims because they have a historical and regional/cultural character. Are you arguing otherwise? I can give you examples.

[Mazhar]

Salam Bro Mazar

You are one of those knowledgeable person in FM and agreed with most of what you put up. Since you asked for my advise, than it will be my honor.

04:03 - And if you fear that you will not distribute justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [orphan] women, two or three or four. So if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses [the meaning as mentioned in your link] . That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

In order to comprehand the verse above, we need to cross examine 04:127, which states

And they request from you, [O Muhammad], a [legal] ruling concerning women. Say, "Allah gives you a ruling about them and what has been recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan women to whom you do not give what is decreed for them and you desire to marry them and the ones who are weak among children and that you stand for orphans with justice." And whatever you do of good - than indeed, Allah is ever Knowing of it.


As guardian of the orphans, one of the criteria is we must be able to distribute justly of what is with them. If we fear of not being just than it is practical to marry the women among the orphans. If we have intention to marry them but due to financial difficulties, than marry just one of them OR she under your protection and responsibility-believing woman in the fold of non-believer who migrated to believing society: She whom Allah the Exalted in that state had brought-made her Ward under your authority and obligation. This is in conjunction with 04:25

This is my understanding of the verse 04:03.

Peace

Salamun alaika,

I am grateful for kind words and suggesting your view point about 4:03. Knowledge is in the Book. We need only tools-kit to acquire skill to retrieve knowledge from it. May be I use tools required for syntactic parsing of text and frequently revisit them to avoid erring.

Just to revisit basics of reading and understanding, a text comprises only of three things:

1. Word  [parts of speech; English normally has eight; Arabic three since adjectives, adverbs, pronouns etc are included in noun]

2. Phrase; and

3. Sentence.

As we know a sentence comprises of nothing else than words and phrases. Thus, it is evident that merely knowing the meanings of words and phrases we may not necessarily understand what is stated in the sentence. Peculiar arrangement of words embeds meanings and perception which the speaker intends to communicate to listener or reader. This is what we call syntax.

If we keep revisiting grammar of English, we will not find grammar of Arabic much different. But we must know what is the function of Preposition, Prepositional Phrase; circumstantial clause; types of sentences by structure and meanings; determination of subject and predicate and so on.
Without knowing syntax how can we comprehend a text?

Fear is not restricted to distribution of inheritance it is about treating the father-orphans children equally as those children whose fathers are alive.

In article on MMA I have not given analysis of 4:03. Kindly see here and then we can discuss if any point is lacking there.

Syntactic analysis of Ayah 4:03

[Novice]

Where did I say there is stupidity in the Qur'an? I know there are verses in the Qur'an that are not applied today by most Muslims because they have a historical and regional/cultural character. Are you arguing otherwise? I can give you examples.

Peace Recluse
I never play the game I am right and you are wrong. I always approach Quran for the guidance. I found lots of nonsense and stupidity in traditional translations and tafseers, So I decided to find out the truth by learning the Quranic Arabic.
I am learning new things with the passage of time. Anyone approaching Quran for guidance can get it as per one's capacity. You may have a different interpretation of a verse than me and both of us are responsible for our interpretation. We can discuss but cannot enforce our interpretations on others.
2:256
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong....
So if we try and discuss with others things start becoming clear as per above verse.
If you give an example from Quran which is not applicable today we can discuss it and I can give my understanding which may or may not be liked by you. I am just a student and trying to clarify truth for myself. Academic discussions are a good way of doing it without any offence.

So please discuss what is not applicable from Quran today and I might learn something new.

[Samira1234]

@Novice

I have issues regarding this verse. What is your opinion regarding the below verse?

24:2 The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their torture.

The translators usually chooses the word 'punishment' as a translation for the Arabic word ?Azabahuma? which is a big error. The exact meaning of the word azabahuma is: ?the torture of both of them?. Well, that doesn't sound much of a merciful God. Apparently both the public humiliation and real physical pain especially, to the person, is collectively being torture for that person. And Allah does not only sanction torture and that too for public view, but He is also concerned that the human feeling of the people who implement His orders might succumb to their feelings, hence they are warned against it, by mentioning the Last Day (do not be taken by pity for them in the system of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day).

Please give your input regarding the above verse.

Peace.

[hawk99]

Peace Hizbullah, Mazhar

While I agree that 4/3 and 4/127 comprise a context, I am not sure about an orphan being a woman.



wa-in   khif'tum     allā                        tuq'siṭū                             fī             l-yatāmā

And if    you fear   that not         you will be able to do justice     with       the orphans,   


fa-inkiḥū            mā            ṭāba                    lakum       mina          l-nisāi

then marry       what      seems suitable         to you      from          the women

mathnā          wathulātha         warubāʿa       fa-in         khif'tum         allā

two,              or three,            or four            But if       you fear       that not

taʿdilū                           fawāḥidatan              aw       mā         malakat

you can do justice       then (marry) one         or      what        possesses

aymānukum             dhālika                  adnā                               allā

your right hand.      That            (is) more appropriate            that (may) not

taʿūlū                 waātū               l-nisāa            ṣaduqātihinna          niḥ'latan

you oppress      And give          the women           their dower         graciously

fa-in        ṭib'na                lakum     ʿan         shayin        min'hu        nafsan 

But if      they remit          to you     of        anything        of it         (on their) own,

fakulūhu            hanīan                       marīan

then eat it       (in) satisfaction         (and) ease.


If you fear that you cannot do right by orphan girls (taking advantage of them),
then marry women two, three, or four (in righteous) but if you can't be just with
multiple wives then marry one or a slave, that would be better for you that you
not oppress.  Give the women their dowry kindly and if they remit to any part of the
dowry, take it with ease.


May Allah guide us to the truth